Whirlpool

Does anyone know much about digital radio(DAB)? I was thinking of buying a decent radio, then I thought maybe I should wait and see what digital radio does. Am I likely to pick it up ~150km out of Melbourne anyway?

foxx510 writes...

Am I likely to pick it up ~150km out of Melbourne anyway?

No. See http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310504 especially the engineering report, http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib100535/eng%20report_drcps_sept07.pdf

pages 61-63. 150km is well outside the coverage areas for Melbourne.

Anyway, what's being broadcast on digital radio at the moment? Hope it's more exciting than the endless loops on HDTV.

Thanks for that. I found the documents a little hard to follow, will there ever be digital coverage for the major regional centers like Geelong etc ?

foxx510 writes...

will there ever be digital coverage for the major regional centers like Geelong etc ?

Eventually... (Manuel from Barcelona)

In the fullness of time... (Sir Humphrey)

Who knows? If we had unlimited quotas in Australia, Internet radio streaming would leave digital radio in the dust right now. Some ISP's allow unmetered audio streaming already, even if the bitrates and codecs leave a lot to be desired.

apw3642 writes...

even if the bitrates and codecs leave a lot to be desired

have you seen what they are going to be using in DAB? it isn't much better

apw3642 writes...

If we had unlimited quotas in Australia, Internet radio streaming would leave digital radio in the dust right now

Once 3G broadband quotas go up and the price comes down AND someone invents an internet radio with 3G and WiFi support, that will be the day I buy a new wireless.

If that happens, expect DAB/DAB+ to go the way of AM Stereo.

foxx510 writes...

Am I likely to pick it up ~150km out of Melbourne anyway?

At this stage, no. Stations in the 5 major capitals have to switch on by mid 2009, however I suspect most will flick the switch by Christmas. Regional markets will follow a few years after that.

apw3642 writes...

Anyway, what's being broadcast on digital radio at the moment? Hope it's more exciting than the endless loops on HDTV.

Nothing at this stage in Brisbane/Perth/Adelaide. The trials are still on in Sydney/Melbourne, but all of them are just a simulcast of their FM stream.

Heaps of info here: www.digitalradioaustralia.com.au

Also a word of caution. Be wary of purchasing sets off eBay or from overseas websites. Most will probably be standard DAB sets, not DAB+ which is the format Australia will be using.

Might treat myself to a shiny new wireless then. Thanks for the info everyone.

I have several DAB radios from the UK and while they've worked reasonably well for the past 2 years (although transmissions are due to officially start next year, they've been around since at least 2006).

Recently, the transmissions have been going on and off every now and then and the three radios that I have are about to become obsolete when Australia introduces the DAB+ standard (which none of them support).

To be honest, DAB hasn't brought all that it has promissed. Although the clarity is great (the audio is effectively 128-192Kbps MPEG-2 audio), it's very sensitive to having a good signal.

One portable unit I have doesn't have a very sensitive receiver and it's difficult to receive some of the multiplexes.

I do think things like the iPhone and greater adoption of 3G Mobile will dwarf a lot of the functionality of DAB/DAB+ and give people a lot more choice.

Looks like May 1, 2009 is the date !!!

http://www.theage.com.au/news/digital-life/home-entertainment/articles/digital-radio-comes-late-to-the-party/2008/11/22/1226770790726.html

What frequencies, bandwidth, channel spacing are they planing on using ?
I have seen L Band DAB receivers, but unsure that there were any L Band transmissions.

edit. Looks like I just found it in the ACMA documents.
Such HRPs could be implemented if DAB services are able to operate in the 230-240 MHz band or post analog television switch-off in the 174-230 MHz band (channels 6-12), if regional digital television services are able to be re-channelled. for Sydney.

With the launch of Digital Radio from May 2009 just wondering wheat people thaughts are on this service. Has anybody actually been using it yet? I know they have been running test transmissions in selected capital cities already over the past year. Are any retailers actually selling digital radios yet?

If anybody is interested you can check out the Digital plus web site for Australia. It shows that the service is officially launched progressively from May 2009 in selected areas. Hopefully all radio stations in your area will use the service. Mainly to improve the crummy AM radio service most people have.

http://www.digitalradioplus.com.au/

Also judjing by models shown on the web site, They don't at all look very asthetically nice. I do hope that well known manufacturers also release models. Especially ones that you can easily stack into hifi component systems to match existing equipment. Better still it would be realy good if they could release wireless receivers that could handle internet radio as well as the new digital radio service. Less importantly they were will probably even be ones available for the car as well.

One of the advantages to digital radio is the ability for stations to stream the name of the song, artist etc as text while the song is playing.

However, I seriously doubt any stations in Australia will do that. I suspect digital radio in australia will be advertised as revolutionising radio but will only show the name of the station only. I hope i'm wrong though.

Incidently I would love to have the ability to see the song name and artist as text during the listening of music.

Geoff Leff writes...

I would love to have the ability to see the song name and artist as text during the listening of music.

...and the lyrics to sing along... :)

Geoff Leff writes...

will only show the name of the station only

RDS already provides this functionality. And most stations have and use it already.

jasonc writes...

RDS already provides this functionality. And most stations have and use it already.

Exactly, I don't think radio stations are going to offer anything extra such as the ability to view song title, artist etc.

I'm interested in DAB+ due to the fact when ever I drive along the Telstra dome or under a bridge 3AW cuts out and the there is the annoying power line buzz when you drive near them or under them.

So my question is, is there a digital radio-car stereo yet?

cMa??eN? writes...

when ever I drive along the Telstra dome or under a bridge 3AW cuts out and the there is the annoying power line buzz when you drive near them or under them.

Same for 774 in that area. Also bad for 1026 on the Maltby Bypass near the Melbourne Vet. Centre.

If only we weren't so greedy in selling spectrum, we could have been like Britain where every AM station was giving an FM frequency to dualcast. Its damn annoying that 774 is only available to people with an AM radio that are in the right area or with internet access. So much for the ABC broadcasting to the widest possible audience!

So my question is, is there a digital radio-car stereo yet?

I gather that the sensitivity of digital broadcasts is going to make the car radio difficult. Surely the sets will have to have stronger receivers and therefore cost more?

Daly Waters writes...

I gather that the sensitivity of digital broadcasts is going to make the car radio difficult. Surely the sets will have to have stronger receivers and therefore cost more?

This could be another option...
Internet car radio
http://www.theage.com.au/news/digital-life/home-entertainment/articles/internet-car-radio-a-world-first/2009/01/07/1231004091554.html

well if you look on digitalradioplus.com.au, it has a feature where you enter your postcode and it shows whether or not you could get DAB+.

The ABC says this:
"It is unlikely that digital radio will be extended to regional areas until more broadcast spectrum becomes available following the turn-off of the analogue television network in 2013."

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/digital/

jv writes...

Looks like May 1, 2009 is the date !!!

Have just heard ABC is missing the official launch and have delayed starting their digital channels till July.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/04/2507126.htm?section=entertainment

Interesting to hear an ABC spokeswoman just now on the radio say the advantage of the delay for them will be taking advantage of new technology so wonder what the commercial stations launching in May will be missing ...

I read that as meaning they still have to get the data streaming (title and artist etc.) sorted out.

ABC are pretty good at launching tech recently (I'm thinking of the dig 'net radio channels and iView) so I reckon they are making sure it's 100% functional before releasing. Shame they don't do software. :)

I stumbled across a DAB chip today that I thought some of the other electronics and radio buffs might like to look at.
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/en/an/AN4154.pdf

T.S.B. writes...

I read that as meaning they still have to get the data streaming (title and artist etc.) sorted out.

It just came over the radio that the delay is caused by a "funding issue".

T.S.B. writes...

ABC are pretty good at launching tech recently (I'm thinking of the dig 'net radio channels and iView) so I reckon they are making sure it's 100% functional before releasing. Shame they don't do software. :)

The ABC engineering guys do fabulous work, with many solutions for audio relay designed and built in-house.

Wondering with the advent of DAB and Internet Radio Sets beginning to take off also if we need a separate Radio Forum here on Whirlpool.

ABC should be fairly embarrassed by their further 3 month delay with DAB.

Personally Internet Radio has far more to offfer than DAB. I've recently acquired a Pure Evoke Flow which has both DAB+ & Internet Radio functions as well as FM Radio and Media Streaming. It's awesome listening to stations from UK which are crystal clear. DAB is a minor bonus compared to the internet radio capability.

See http://www.pure.com/products/product.asp?Product=VL-60896

Donncha writes...

Personally Internet Radio has far more to offfer than DAB.

Not for me...

I want DAB+ for the car and for when I'm out jogging or walking to listen to my favourite stations... Internet radio needs an internet connection, and costs a lot more to use...

JV ..............I take your point ...on the move DAB will be more useful but in the home with wifi internet, then internet radio will be the superior choice. As regards cost of course DAB is free, as long as one has a sensible usage allowance with your ISP, then internet radio should not cost you anything more than what you are already paying for internet. I paid $29 per month for internet before getting internet radio & I still pay $29 per month now with internet radio. With moderately heavy use of the internet radio I have been using approx an extra 2GB per month to my previous monthly usage.

I like my home made crystal radio.
Hope I don't have to upgrade too soon :)

Donncha writes...

internet radio will be the superior choice.

You'll need to wait until you 'hear' the difference before making that claim...
Most of the australian radio stations i hear over internet radio have far inferior quality when compared to a regular radio...

The only advantage that internet radio has is the vast choice of stations. For those who want to listen to a local station, DAB+ will be the best choice if they are after quality audio.

I am about to purchase a good quality clock radio. Should I hold off?? Are DAB+ devices currently available and do they also support standard am/fm??
The digital radio plus site appears to be a bit behind the times/

DAB+ is yet to officially launch. I think the official launch has been pushed back again until about August due to delays at the ABC. There's also some speculation that DRM+ may also be used in regional areas (since DAB+'s coverage can't match AM's). In that case (especially if you may use it in or to pick up regional signals), it might be wise to wait for a dual DAB+/DRM+ radio to come out. I doubt there'd be much to choose from with DAB+ radios now (if there's even any at all).

.ausWY. writes...

I doubt there'd be much to choose from with DAB+ radios now (if there's even any at all).

DAB has been used in other countries for a number of years. Presumably there are lots of brands & models to choose from. Do you think they would work over here?

We are one of if not the 1st countries to adopt DAB+. DAB+ is not compatible with DAB so the answer is NO!

I don't think DAB will work/takeoff in Australia until all new cars are shipped with
Digital Radios.

I would say that 99% of my Radio listening is in the car to and from work..

Its like the whole saga of Digital TV.. 9 years on and its still a mess.

The only good this is now nearly all new TV's are shipped with HD tuners..

As noted in my original post and in others' replies, we will be adopting DAB+, not DAB. DAB+ uses the newer and more efficient AAC+ compression in contrast to DAB which uses the dated MPEG compression. As such, unless the radio clearly states that it is a DAB+ radio (with the plus [+] symbol), it's not going to work in Australia.

I have researched this over the last week and it seems PURE brand has the best range in UK. They are available here but at twice the price as in UK. The question is will the UK ones work here with DAB+? Can anyone tell me this?

PURE have told me that their Evoke Flow Radio should work with DAB & DAB+ anywhere worldwide. In Brisbane no stations broadcasting in DAB as of yet so I have been unable to verify this. I anticipate no problems in picking up DAB+ if the bloody thing ever gets going here.

whoistheg writes...

I don't think DAB will work/takeoff in Australia until all new cars are shipped with
Digital Radios.

I would say that 99% of my Radio listening is in the car to and from work..

They know this, and even state it in the ACMA document if I recall correctly.
Should be better then current services anyway, FM sounds rubbish.

GadgetGuy has reviewed 12 of the first batch of digital radios, all of which will be on sale in early May.

Published so far is:

Pure One Elite – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/pure-one-elite-review-153269-6.html

Pure Chronos iDock – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/pure-chronos-idock-review-153284-6.html

Arcam FMJ T32 DAB/FM/AM tuner – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/arcam-fmj-t32-dab-fm-am-tuner-review-153274-6.html

Grundig GDR710DABIP – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/grundig-gdr710dabip-review-153278-6.html

Revo Pico DAB+ – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/revo-pico-dab+-review-153295-6.html

Pure Evoke Flow – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/pure-evoke-flow-review-153290-6.html

The other 6 reviews are being published tomorrow. There's also an introduction to DAB+ – http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/digital-radio-buyers-guide-article-5635-6.html

whoistheg writes...

I don't think DAB will work/takeoff in Australia until all new cars are shipped with
Digital Radios.

I can't wait to listen to McDonald's commercials and brain dead 'morning crew' banter (complete with token moronic giggling chick) in digital :-) Happy times !!

Given the size of Australia, does anyone know why this was not set up as a satellite only service?

My question is in part about the relative costs of lots of far-flung transmitters and their feeds/maintenance, in part about wondering if satellite was going to be a more reliable service to country areas when there are bush-fire/flood emergencies.

Yes I know about time-zones and regional advertising complexities. There is nothing there that cannot be worked around.

Therefore I am writes...

Given the size of Australia, does anyone know why this was not set up as a satellite only service?

Good question. My guess would be the initial costs involved. I can't say I've ever had to get a quote for building, launching, and operating a satellite, or renting some
spectrum on one, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be cheap :-(

Yes I know about time-zones and regional advertising complexities. There is nothing there that cannot be worked around.

The crudest & easiest method would be to just use a different frequency for each timezone, and delay the broadcast (and insert the local content) for each timezone/region. The same as it is with normal radio now.

mattkenny writes...

The crudest & easiest method would be to just use a different frequency for each timezone, and delay the broadcast (and insert the local content) for each timezone/region.

Multiplexed digital radio channels use relatively small bandwidths compared to TV. It would not be an impossible task.

As for the expense, IIRC there are a couple of large Japanese satellites that can cover this area and would probably be cheaper than using any Australian owned transponders.

IMHO, any new radio network should also be capable of acting as an emergency warning/information network and be largely immune from disruption by most ground based disaster situations.

That this network has not been set up to function in this way is a reflection of the national thinking that believes "she'll be right" is a powerful incantation to ward off evil, also a savage indictment of a national failure to plan for disaster relief and control. Many recent bushfire victims knew they had been ill-served before the end. . . . . .

For heaven's sake, can't we get anything right!

anyone know if any mp3 players can receive the DAB+ radio?

So can a digital set top box pick up DAB+ signals and be heard through a digital TV?

reverb writes...

So can a digital set top box pick up DAB+ signals and be heard through a digital TV?

I doubt it. AFAIK, they're using a different codec altogether.

reverb writes...

So can a digital set top box pick up DAB+ signals and be heard through a digital TV?

No.

Just noticed Dick Smith is now listing a few DAB+ radios on their site – price ranges from $169-$286

Therefore I am writes...

Given the size of Australia, does anyone know why this was not set up as a satellite only service?

One is that, radio licences (apart from the ABC and SBS) are region-based and not national. I'd imagine there'd be some issues with localising the radio services. According to the ACMA, there are 875 licence areas (a portion of these would just be relays for national/regional stations though) for FM alone and many are very specialised (e.g. sub-metro community stations with just a few suburbs' coverage—I think there's at least a dozen of these in Sydney). I doubt satellites would be able to focus a beam that narrowly.

Given experience with GPS and satellite TV, I'd also think that satellite services wouldn't work as well indoors? Rain fade may also be an issue.

So can a digital set top box pick up DAB+ signals and be heard through a digital TV?

DAB+ and DVB-t (the digital terrestrial TV broadcast standard we use) are not cross-compatible. Even if they were, current DVB-t STBs would not be able to decode an AAC+ stream.

I think DAB+ will do pretty well. About 50% of people only listen to AM and the quality difference is huge. Second, there are already 2 new DAB+ only stations launched with I am sure many more to come. Once radio stations start broadcasting multiple sporting events at the same time things will really move. I can't wait to get decent morning radio (music only for a change)

DAB+ tuner just released by a Danish brand Maximum. Its a tuner only (no amp or speakers), has DAB+, internet radio & stream music from PC. The idea is to update your current Hi-Fi system rather than having to replace the whole lot.

www.msml.com.au

IMHO there's absolutely nothing (other than some ABC) worth listening to on Australian radio – unless you can live with the 6 songs an hour interspersed with 20 mins of over-modulated ads – total rubbish....

Give me an Internet Radio with a BBC Radio feed any day.... :)

angryofmayfair writes...

Give me an Internet Radio with a BBC Radio feed any day.... :)

+1

Listening to BBC Radio 5 right now on my Pure Evoke Flow...

Donncha writes...

Pure Evoke Flow

Now that is very nice! :)
A few questions if I may

Can you get this in Australia?

Will it pick up BBC Real Audio streams? (Not sure if R5 is Real Audio or mp3 stream but BBC R2 is only Real Audio, which is what I mainly listen to)

Does it sound as good as it should (going by the specs)? I have a Bush Internet radio that sounds awful so these days I just use a Mac connected to my stereo via an Airport Express.

I wonder if the DAB part will pick up Australian DAB OK? I think the system here is different to the UK DAB system – it would be nice to hear 3LO in decent quality stereo occasionally :)

Thanks

dable writes...

Second, there are already 2 new DAB+ only stations launched with I am sure many more to come.

I'm not sure you'll be such a fan when the quality takes a nose dive to fit the extra services in.

Given that each existing analogue station will be given a maximum of 128kbps each, my guess would be that Nova (w/secondary stream Novanation), Vega (w/secondary stream Koffee), 2Day (w/secondary stream Radar), Triple M (w/secondary stream Pink Radio), etc. will each be 64kbps AAC+. If any station tries to add a third service, things aren't going to look (or sound) so pretty at about ~43kbps each.

citizen_smith writes...

I can't wait to listen to McDonald's commercials and brain dead 'morning crew' banter (complete with token moronic giggling chick) in digital

Try listening to JJJ, or ZZZ (Bris) RRR (Melb.) etc. or even the ABC (plenty of variety, plenty of stations). You'll never look back at commercial radio again, ever.

angryofmayfair writes...

Pure Evoke Flow

Now that is very nice! :)

Agreed !

Can you get this in Australia?

I believe if not available already will be available very soon though unsure who will be stocking it. Why pay 3 times the UK price though? Easy to import from UK for a fraction of cost. Here is PURE AUS Tel number who should be able to tell you where to buy on Aus +61 (0)3 9722 2422

Does it sound as good as it should (going by the specs)?

Sounds great...even better if you hook it up to half decent speakers.

I wonder if the DAB part will pick up Australian DAB OK?

If DAB+ ever gets going here, the Pure Flow will be compatible.

Will it pick up BBC Real Audio streams?

Can listen to all BBC Radio stations 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 , all regional stations as well. Can also listen to most BBC radio programs via Listen again function on Flow not to mention ease of listening to podcasts .

If buying suggest getting a battery and remote as options as well.

Any other questions?

ThePMan writes...

I'm not sure you'll be such a fan when the quality takes a nose dive to fit the extra services in.

As I said about half of the population listen to AM radio so the improvement over this will be huge.

I have spoken to a radio engineer who is a friend of a friend. He said it will be up to each radio station to determine the quality of the sound. A talkback station won't care much so they will split up the signal into several channels. The FM music stations will obviously want to have quality which is as good as or better than FM otherwise it is a waste of time.

He also said that FM stations massage their sound to (a) reduce static and (b) give them their a particular sound (press the loudness button?). Thats why radio sound different to the song on the CD. Whether they do this or not on DAB+ will be up to each station.

Same thing with Internet radio. If the radio station wants to use heaps of bandwidth they can send a great signal over the Internet. So its not all cut and dry.

My statement stands. I'm not so sure you will be so happy when the quality goes to hell.

dable writes...

He also said that FM stations massage their sound to (a) reduce static and (b) give them their a particular sound (press the loudness button?). Thats why radio sound different to the song on the CD.

You are referring to pre-emphasis to take care of high end issues with FM transmission and boom/tiss + dynamic range compression to make the station 'sound louder' than the others. Pre-emphasis is obviously not done for a digital transmission but you'd be unwise to expect boom/tiss + dynamic range compression to go away because the fundamental reason for it being done will remain.

cMa??N?e writes...

So my question is, is there a digital radio-car stereo yet?

Blaupunkt have made a few, pretty much from the beginning, so I don't doubt that there will be DAB+ units if the demand is there.

Very nice units as well (although not cheap) and they did need a special aerial which was almost invisible but still means extra cost. I found they were susceptible to reception issues (e.g. under bridges), but the trial did not have strong broadcast coverage though.

If you got a very late TV, it should be able to pick up DAB's.
I also have a TV tuner in my PC that is of a Terestrial/Digital TV kind.
It picks up DAB without a problem.

The plasma TV is a LG 42" and it picks up DAB without a problem.
Though the only stations are just SBS radio and ABC (jazz music and news I think).

I swear the jazz is so clear, it's like you are really there.

I'm about 40k's out of Melbourne.

Just need more stations to switch to Dig. :)

EDIT: Oppps, are these just DAB not DAB+ stations at the moment? I see some are being switched on in May to DAB+.

Confused now if Plasma TV and TV Tuner will pick up the May broadcasts.

Are you sure you are getting DAB and not just audio streams carried within the standard DVB-t transmission? That you mention SBS radio and the ABC music streams suggests you are still receiving DVB-t, not DAB. They are two very different beasts.

Donncha writes...

If buying suggest getting a battery and remote as options as well.

Any other questions?

No – thanks for the info – will order one from the UK! :)

Cheers

ThePMan writes...

Are you sure you are getting DAB and not just audio streams carried within the standard DVB-t transmission?

Ahh yes, it's DVB. I thought there was something different about it.
Hmm.

So I guess, everyone now will go DAB+ standard instead of using the DVB or just DAB?

I am really interested in getting a Digital Radio for my car, either as a full headunit or just as an add on i can plug into the AUX in... only thing I am worried about is will I be able to listen to it from Melbourne to Geelong as I dont know if the range is the same as Analog, Geelong to Melbourne is my daily drive to work.. Geelong picks up Melbourne digital TV fine so i am guessing digital radio should be the same range...

Reason I am really interested is that Nova have launched 2 digital only stations... and Nova100 is on both Analog and Digital.

Novanation – http://www.novanation.com.au/
and
Koffee – http://www.koffee.com.au/

I listen to Novanation all the time via internet streaming, it is a 24/7 dance station... thing is I want to be able to also listen to it in the car... Plus I would rather listen to the radio then my ipod or cd's cause atleast the radio will throw in some new songs that I would normally not have known about.

Spanrz writes...

So I guess, everyone now will go DAB+ standard instead of using the DVB or just DAB?

DVB-t (what your TV gets) is targetted at fixed reception. Its not intended to cope with moving around a lot (in a car), that's what DVB-h is all about. Digital radio is different again.

To the people who have ordered from the UK. I have read on the dtv forums that our dab+ uses DRM and you can't use a uk DAB+ device. I may have read it wrong. DAB+ is meant to be broadcasting tomorrow (1ST May) I believe. Can anyone confirm that the UK devices work here for DAB+ broadcasts.

The UK uses DAB, not DAB+. A DAB class receiver will not work in Australia for that reason. In addition to DAB+ Australia will also deploy DRM for regional / remote area coverage.

theoutsider writes...

Can anyone confirm that the UK devices work here for DAB+ broadcasts.

I'm waiting to hear back from the UK manufacturer – will post here when I find out...

angryofmayfair writes...

I'm waiting to hear back from the UK manufacturer – will post here when I find out...

Older DAB radios from UK will not work with DAB+. More recent models more likely to be compatible. The PURE Evoke Flow is DAB & DAB+ compatible.

Tomorrow is 1st May 2009 if I am not mistaken ....is that not the date DAB was meant to be launched here? I know ABC pushed theirs back a few months ....is anyone else launching DAB+ (in Brisbane) tomorrow does anyone know ?

I'm not holding my breath ............

cMa??N?e writes...

So my question is, is there a digital radio-car stereo yet?

Here is an in-car DAB radio from PURE in UK

http://www.pure.com/products/product.asp?Product=VL-60905&Category=In-Car

I have no idea how good it is or if DAB+ is an option. It's a bit of a brick a bit like bulky early mobile phones.

With Phone + Sat Nav and now DAB radio hanging off windscreen one might be hard pressed to see the road ahead through the cluttered windscreen .........

........................though I'm sure someone on WP will know of a gadget at Jaycar or the likes that you can mount another screen on windscreen linked to cameras and sensors on the front of the car removing the historic requirement to be able to see through the windscreen

Donncha writes...

Older DAB radios from UK will not work with DAB+.

Certain DAB sets that do the decoding entirely in firmware can be upgraded to DAB+, but they are more the exception than the rule.

Donncha writes...

is anyone else launching DAB+ (in Brisbane) tomorrow does anyone know ?

<snip>
Commercial digital radio services are expected to be switched on in each city from the dates below barring any weather delays. For the first 10 -14 days services might be on low power at night as any potential interference to television services is addressed.

Perth – 4 May
Melbourne – 11 May
Adelaide – 15 May
Brisbane – 25 May
Sydney – 30 May
<snip>
http://www.digitalradioplus.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1001

A number of DAB+ radios are listed as FM capable but there's no mention of AM although a number of AM stations are listed as digital – http://www.digitalradioplus.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1018&Search&special=stations

So what happens if I wish to listen to AM?

Chris Burns writes...

So what happens if I wish to listen to AM?

Build a crystal set...

The amusing thing about the introduction of DAB is that there is no sign of any switch off date for AM Radio, unlike analog television which digital television is supposed to replace.
How many sorts of radio do we need as we will end up with AM, FM and DAB.
The market just isnt that big.

mauried writes...

The amusing thing about the introduction of DAB is that there is no sign of any switch off date for AM Radio, unlike analog television which digital television is supposed to replace.

How many sorts of radio do we need as we will end up with AM, FM and DAB.

The market just isnt that big.

Average Joe just won't bother with Digital,same as what happened in the UK,its just another nail in the coffin of Commercial Radio in OZ.

mauried writes...

How many sorts of radio do we need as we will end up with AM, FM and DAB.

Its worse than that. DAB+ so far is going to be deployed in metro / some regional areas. The rest of the country will be served by DRM. So one will need an AM/FM/DAB+/DRM capable radio. Such a beast at this point is extremely rare.

Imagine it – based upon what is available today – buy a car in Brisbane and they'll have to fit an AM/FM/DAB+ radio, buy a car in regional QLD and they'll have to fit an AM/FM/DRM radio. Travel outside your normal home area and your radio won't pickup the local transmissions. Wonderful!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: once the radios are available, and the data plans are reasonably priced, Internet Radio over 3G will kill DAB+ dead, and may even take a decent sized chunk out of FM and AM radio.

The ability to pick up over 10,000 stations on a half-decent 3G network for maybe < $20 per month in data charges is something I am really looking forward to in the next 3-5 years.

Tone. writes...

The ability to pick up over 10,000 stations on a half-decent 3G network for maybe < $20 per month in data charges is something I am really looking forward to in the next 3-5 years.

I'd hazard a guess and say it's a long time coming for that. I've got internet radio enabled on my iphone, which connects to my car stereo, and the amount of times it has dropped out due to signal strength fluctuations is appauling, so I don't even use it.

Tone. writes...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: once the radios are available, and the data plans are reasonably priced, Internet Radio over 3G will kill DAB+ dead, and may even take a decent sized chunk out of FM and AM radio.

Agreed.
I'm already using my iPhone in the car to stream BBC Radio – at last I have something worth listening to other than my iPod.... :)
FWIW, I'm on a Vodafone plan with 500mb of data/mth which gives me an hour or two per workday – just about enough, it works reasonably well but I do get drop outs here & there.
Wish I could afford Telstra data but it's out of the question – a total rip-off....
Edit – change GB to mb :)

angryofmayfair writes...

500GB of data/mth

WTF?
Surely this is a typo.
Not even ADSL ISPs have that!

Corvus writes...

WTF?
Surely this is a typo.
Not even ADSL ISPs have that!

heh! Sorry yes – should be MB :)
*One day* – 500GB might be possible??? :)

ThePMan writes...

Its worse than that. DAB+ so far is going to be deployed in metro / some regional areas. The rest of the country will be served by DRM. So one will need an AM/FM/DAB+/DRM capable radio. Such a beast at this point is extremely rare.

You do not seem to like digital radio! Have you heard DAB+ or just DAB?

The dept of communications website says they will test DRM but does not say they will use it – in fact they are not going to make a decision for some years.

If you look at the various company websites – Pure, Bush, Maximum etc, most decent units are a combination of FM/DAB+/Internet Radio/MP3 player.

Corvus writes...

I'd hazard a guess and say it's a long time coming for that. I've got internet radio enabled on my iphone, which connects to my car stereo, and the amount of times it has dropped out due to signal strength fluctuations is appauling, so I don't even use it.

It'll get there. In 5 years time once 3G coverage is better, data pricing is better and the radios are available, Internet Radio over 3G will really give traditional radio a run for its money. At least I hope so, as I enjoy a number of internet radio stations and would love to be able to buy a car head unit or portable radio with internet radio over 3G.

Tone. writes...

In 5 years time once 3G coverage is better, data pricing is better and the radios are available, Internet Radio over 3G will really give traditional radio a run for its money.

I hope so too, however wasn't there a big push recently to get internet radio stations to pay roalties for their songs, which would drastically reduce their numbers? Or has that failed now?

Corvus writes...

wasn't there a big push recently to get internet radio stations to pay roalties for their songs, which would drastically reduce their numbers? Or has that failed now?

Yes I remember this a year or two back – it sounded as though it was the end of the line for Internet Radio – I haven't heard anything about it for ages – let's hope it's all dead and buried....

dable writes...

You do not seem to like digital radio! Have you heard DAB+ or just DAB?

I live in regional QLD so I probably won't experience 'digital radio' for some time apart from when I'm in Brisbane. But that in no way prevents me from understanding how it will sound. Its easy enough to encode audio on a PC with a range of codecs and configurations.

Gaz Iggi writes...

well if you look on digitalradioplus.com.au, it has a feature where you enter your postcode and it shows whether or not you could get DAB+.

Which is absolute crap as they have used the very much outdated Telstra "metro area" postcode boundary for Melbourne as the deciding factor.

For example Pakenham is postcode 3810 and it tells me that my area is "Regional" (!) and therefore DAB+ is most definitely not available. However just 5km down the road is 3808 which is Beaconsfield and magically you can get DAB+

Just have to say www.digitalradioplus.com.au is the worst web site I've visited in a long time. Front page appears to be well over 2Mb – killer on dial up.

I notice that DAB+ sets start as low as $140 for a clock radio. Somehow I don't think I'll be rushing out to buy a $140 clock radio.

"Some of the well known brand names include Sangean, Bush, PURE, Revo, Roberts, Yamaha, Grundig and many others being announced soon". – I've heard of Yamaha, Bush and Grundig but who are they trying to sell this too?

You left out the amazingly annoying ding ding ding audio that plays on every page change. Some people have no idea.... this site is a a living example.

hoxygt writes...

I notice that DAB+ sets start as low as $140 for a clock radio. Somehow I don't think I'll be rushing out to buy a $140 clock radio.

I'll wait till they release some decent models. Would be wonderfull if they released a decent hifi component radio that also had internet radio support.

I heard that with DAB+ alot of extra information can be sent down along with the station. Such as song lyrics, album art, artist biography, Sports scores (during live events) etc. I wonder what kind of price one of these would cost.

They also need to include AM and FM as well as I just took a look at the DAB+ web site and for Sydney it only mentions 9 FM stations. Just the major 9 FM stations. From where I live I can get 41 radio stations between Woollongong, Central Coast and Newcastle. So not all radio stations will be available on DAB+.
Also on the DAB+ web site the Central coast is considered a digital reception area, but they consider it part of Sydney yet no stations are listed. And at least 4 major stations are there.

Also N0 – Regional rollout is to be negotiated with the Federal Government – please contact your local member or keep checking this site for news.

g12345567 writes...

I heard that with DAB+ alot of extra information can be sent down along with the station. Such as song lyrics, album art, artist biography, Sports scores (during live events) etc. I wonder what kind of price one of these would cost.

That was part of the base DAB specification as well. Back then, all models included that facility so I'd expect that to continue, although you might get some who try to release a cheap one without any display. The bigger question though was how much the individual station would provide – just like only one station partially supports Teletext here, I doubt all the stations will fully support the features of DAB unless/until it really takes off.

g12345567 writes...

Would be wonderfull if they released a decent hifi component radio that also had internet radio support.

Yeah there are some other DAB+ models out there with a 2" driver from a brand I have never heard of. Seems kinda pointless having high-ish (I think were talking 192kbps?) quality to put out over a crappy little mono speaker?

g12345567 writes...

I'll wait till they release some decent models. Would be wonderfull if they released a decent hifi component radio that also had internet radio support.

I heard that with DAB+ alot of extra information can be sent down along with the station. Such as song lyrics, album art, artist biography, Sports scores (during live events) etc. I wonder what kind of price one of these would cost.

Note: I work for www.msml.com.au and we import a DAB+ receiver from Maximum.

A lot of the brands that will come through first will be from England (because they have had digital radio for years and a lot of the new models are upgradable to DAB+) or coming out of Europe as Switzerland has already started DAB+. The one we import comes from a Danish company and has Internet radio and MP3 player/streaming capabilities.

The extra info will be available on some fairly inexpensive models (ours is $499 and displays the info) but more expensive ones in the future will have colour screens and album artwork etc. It also depends on which station you listen to; you see what they send. At the moment the different radio stations in Sydney are sending news, sport, weather, traffic, program, song title and artist – depending on the station. The new Sydney DAB+ only station Radar sends some background info on the artist (they play new bands mainly).

The issue Commercial radio Australia has with the postcodes is that companies paid large amounts for licences and they do not want to publicize that someone in Sydney can also get regional stations and vice versa. If you have digital TV and live in a poor reception or outlying area you will know what the difference a digital TV reception has made. What will happen to Wollongong radio stations if half their customers start listening to DAB+ from Sydney?

hoxygt writes...

Seems kinda pointless having high-ish (I think were talking 192kbps?) quality to put out over a crappy little mono speaker?

AFAIK each commercial network is getting 128k to play with. If that network decides to run more than one stream divide it appropriately. Perhaps someone that is listening to a DAB+ transmission in Australia via a device that lets them dump the transport stream would be kind enough to post some real world figures.

curtly writes...

What will happen to Wollongong radio stations if half their customers start listening to DAB+ from Sydney?

Digital Radio in MPO is going to tip a lot of Stations that are struggling over the edge,esp. in regional areas.I may be wrong but i think this whole exercise is going to be a mess,no offence, but except for the enthusiast,who is going to outlay $500 for a Radio.

Dewarerian writes...

I may be wrong but i think this whole exercise is going to be a mess,no offence, but except for the enthusiast,who is going to outlay $500 for a Radio.

Just gotta look at their website to see its a balls up just checked with a fast connection 4MB frontpage – lol!

At least with tv you can get a $40 to give you what you need, I guess at the end of the day its a curiousity for those who like to have the latest gadgets.

FTA TV has the extra incentive of analogue transmission being turned off. AFAIK there is no plan at all at this point to even consider switching off analogue radio transmissions meaning the only reason to get digital radio will be to hear AM broadcasts in* higher quality or to hear any additional services that may start up**.

^{*quality is up to the broadcaster. a 'talkback' station may well decide to use exceedingly low bitrates on the digital platform yielding quality similar to 'AM'.
**in metro markets the FM band is quite often full but more broadcasters want to start. this is usually not an issue in regional / rural areas.}

ThePMan writes...

the only reason to get digital radio will be to hear AM broadcasts in* higher quality or to hear any additional services that may start up**.

The sales arguments so far have also emphasised the extra features e.g. ability to rewind/pause/record, display details (e.g. what's being listened to, news, traffic, other things).

Lets face it, while a digital player could do the trick modes listed will anyone use them? I think its fair to say that most radio listening is done as background filler audio – turn the radio on while working etc (even for sports broadcasts) and in that application I don't think anyone is going to be all that interested in trick modes.

As for text data FM has RDS and there's practically zip use of RDS in Australia. Will text services via DAB+ be any more used? Time will tell.

I'll wait till they release some decent models. Would be wonderfull if they released a decent hifi component radio that also had internet radio support.

I have Pure Avanti. Best Radio I ever owned. Plays FM,Internet Radio,DAB+ & has IPod Dock. It connected automatically to my WIFI out of the box and upgarded its firmware. It has remote control and a list of internet favorites, stereo speakers and base boom box. Not cheap $999 in Aust. but I ordered from UK at less than half this price inc. freight. Arrived in 4 days. I listen to US, Russian and UK radio & don't really care if Digital comes now and that was the original reason I purchased it. Also looks great.

smithkid writes...

I listen to US, Russian and UK radio & don't really care if Digital comes now and that was the original reason I purchased it.

There is no doubt DAB is already outdated before it is launched in Aus . Internet Radio has arrived and is the future

smithkid writes...

DAB+

Really? Website lists only DAB.

While there are a few new digital radio services, at present, the choice is by far wider for me on analogue. In Sydney, my cars' radios easily get 60 stations on the FM band alone with stations coming in from down to Nowra and the Southern Highlands, west to Lithgow and north to the Central Coast and (some) Newcastle.

I wonder how overspill will be like on digital radio. On analogue, the out-of-market stations are there if you know the frequencies (so not many people tune in), but with digital, all the stations will show up in a list. And with digital, stations from surrounding markets can sound just as clear as the local stations. I don't imagine the Sydney stations being too happy if people start tuning to Wollongong, etc. services. Although, I suppose that already happens with digital TV. I can get both the Wollongong and Sydney services where I live.

As for the benefit of being able to rewind, i don't see why this can't be done with analogue radio. The radio just needs to encode the analogue data to digital first.

Station names (and tuning using station names), song names, automatic frequency retuning for networked stations... this can already be done (and is being done) on analogue FM radio. My iPod and car radio can already show stations' names. Some stations (e.g. Nova) also carry the name of the song playing. Others (e.g. River) give news/weather headlines.

For me, the main benefit of digital radio would be the increased quality of AM station; however, most of these stations are mostly voice only anyway. The other main benefit would be the new stations (e.g. Radar, DiG,Novanation, Koffee, etc.)

.ausWY. writes...

For me, the main benefit of digital radio would be the increased quality of AM station;

I need AM in order to listen to ABC Newsradio. Rural areas seem to have FM transmitters but it's AM in Brisbane.

I listen to ABC News Radio & Radio National in Brisbane through the intenet with a Roku Soundbridge. Don't need DAB+ for that unless you want to go portable and don't want to incur 3G charges.

Dan.

Won't know for sure until they start broadcasting but I emailed support at PURE and they said that the firmware update that occurred when I connected to WIFI was the DAB+ support.

For me I think the Roberts Radio Ecologic 4 -

http://www.digitalradioplus.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1019&special=radios&Product_ID=1020

might be the way to go.

I don't need WiFi or MP3 support on a portable radio. My main sound system at home is PC based anyway. The Eco4 has a stereo line-out enabling me to simply add it as an extra item on the sound system if I want higher fidelity.

The unit itself has a pleasant sound (according to UK reports of the non-DAB+ version of this radio) and a quality build. So, when used away from a hifi system, should still do the job nicely.

I've had a look for USB-based DAB+ receivers. There are only two that I'm aware of, and one of them isn't yet being sold anywhere. The other is hard to buy online. So, I'll just wait until such USB devices are more readily available.

Now, if someone could just report the bitrates being used over in Perth ...

A lot of Roberts Radios are actually made in China by Sangean – you might be able to find the same thing with a slightly different finish & badge for less than the Roberts version which probably costs extra for the 'by appointment' badge

angryofmayfair writes...

A lot of Roberts Radios are actually made in China by Sangean

I have noticed this, but I don't think the one I'm after is a re-badged version. For example the two white Sangean models about to be sold here (one with '69' and the other with '99' in the model names) are sold as Roberts Radios in the UK.

It is interesting that the RR Ecologic 4, AKA Gemini 21 in the UK, is not available with DAB+, only DAB. I get the impression that none of their devices in the UK are DAB+ compatible. From what I've read, RR have resisted implementing DAB+ in their receivers. So if its available here with DAB+, that looks like it will be a first!

Chris Burns writes...

Commercial digital radio services are expected to be switched on in each city from the dates below barring any weather delays. For the first 10 -14 days services might be on low power at night as any potential interference to television services is addressed.

Perth – 4 May
Melbourne – 11 May
Adelaide – 15 May
Brisbane – 25 May
Sydney – 30 May
<snip>
http://www.digitalradioplus.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1001

Update:

Adelaide switch-on is now targeted for 20 May.

ABC and SBS are expected to commence digital services throughout June.

cable99 writes...

Adelaide switch-on is now targeted for 20 May.

ABC and SBS are expected to commence digital services throughout June.

Heh! It only seems like yesterday that I witnessed the arrival of commercial FM in Melbourne.... :)
I still have a cassette tape of the opening hours of EON FM somewhere :)

cable99 writes...

Adelaide switch-on is now targeted for 20 May.

They are obviously doing this just to make me wait! :).

Maybe they just thought it would give more retailers time to get in some stock :) :).

Netlust writes...

Maybe they just thought it would give more retailers time to get in some stock :) :).

Its not just stock. I don't see any good DAB+ models that really impress me. At least nothing that is reasonably priced that will stack well in with my existing hifi equipment or supports the additional features that DAB+ will have over a conventional radio. I'd love to see one with internet radio support. Or arn't over priced for what you get.

g12345567 writes...

I'd love to see one with internet radio support.

Actually, a lot of them have this. For example, Sangean have a hifi unit with such features.

Many of the other more portable ones have a stereo line out (ie an output that doesn't go through the headphone amplifier, etc.).

If its just the price, then I guess waiting a bit will help.

The best will probably be a USB based receiver – the features will most likely only be limited by what the accompanying software can handle. They're not out yet here, but I might get one for Christmas :).

Anyone in Melbourne bought a radio yet? I can't find them anywhere.

l0y writes...

I can't find them anywhere.

Have you tried Mr H Norman?

His shops in Perth and Adelaide have a range of gear.

See http://www.harveynorman.com.au/products/index.php/electrical/digital-radio.html

Well, two days ago I rang HN in one of Adelaide's branches and they didn't have a clue when the radios would be in the stores. Apparently they'd ordered lots ...

Netlust writes...

The best will probably be a USB based receiver – the features will most likely only be limited by what the accompanying software can handle.

I assumed if it had those features that were exclusive to DAB+ they would allow you to connect to a tv to display the information. I also heard mentioned units that have Small LCD to display this information as well.

If it was me, I'd be sticking the usb device in my PC which in turn is hooked up to an LCD TV. The PC also runs a twin HDTV tuner and I have my collection of hundreds of CDs on the computer too in the form AAC lossless compression. The PC is also hooked up to wireless broadband and a pretty heavy duty sound system.

So, I've got internet radio, wifi, Digital TV, music collection and decent sound and video system all together. Hence a DAB+ USB receiver would be the missing link! Any video information, electronic program guides, etc. associated with it could be controlled via the PC and TV.

Most of the DAB+ units have small displays. I know that future units (not out yet) will be equipped with more elaborate displays. There are some out like that now if you look around the 'net.

A good site for the latest updates on such things is here

http://www.worlddab.org/

Lots of information, updates, and an interesting newsletter too.

In the meantime, I want this radio

http://www.harveynorman.com.au/products/index.php/electrical/digital-radio/roberts-ecologic-4-dab-digital-radio.html

as it has good build quality (not flimsy), though you can't really tell from the picture, apparently quite decent sound but also a stereo line out for hooking up directly to your sound system. The English version goes under another name and is DAB only, not DAB+, but otherwise I think the units are identical.

Reviews of it over there have been very good. See for example

http://reviews.argos.co.uk/1493-en_gb/5005794/reviews.htm

MP3 and internet radio capability would be wasted on me since I already have more than enough of that capability around my home. So I think this one would be ideal for me. Just have to wait for Hardly Normal to get them in.

I'd like to see DAB+ as an added feature on mobile phones...

Darren. writes...

Which is absolute crap as they have used the very much outdated Telstra "metro area" postcode boundary for Melbourne as the deciding factor.

For example Pakenham is postcode 3810 and it tells me that my area is "Regional" (!) and therefore DAB+ is most definitely not available. However just 5km down the road is 3808 which is Beaconsfield and magically you can get DAB+

If you go to:
http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_90216

Then check your area, you'll likely notice that it is outside the official licence area. That's what it's based on, I've tested it.

In Pakenham, it'll likely be received as overspill is strong due to proximity with Mt Dandenong.

Areas which are within the licence area may not receive digital radio, we will have to wait for start up to see the coverage as it will differ wildly with the predictions.

Perth was a great city to begin in as their radiation pattern is a very generous one, now there's east coast scrutiny in Melb, I wonder how it will be.

Adelaide could be a tough one, the disparity of the height at Mt Lofty with the main population area so close could make it difficult as there's no Foothills translator.

g12345567 writes...

Would be wonderfull if they released a decent hifi component radio that also had internet radio support.

Yamaha do/are bringing such a model out.

This is what's going on in Perth:

CRN/Grant (128kbps)
6IX (64kbps)
(silence) (64kbps)

Austereo (256kbps)
Pink (64kbps)
Radar(64kbps)
92.9 (64kbps)
Mix (64kbps)

Fairfax (256kbps)
96fm (64kbps)
96fm "HD" (128kbps)
6PR (64kbps)

ARN/DMG (128kbps)
Nova (64kbps)
Novanation (64kbps)

It's bandwidth hogging, AAC+ v2 requires only 48 kbps to be judged excellent/perceived as a uncompressed WAV file etc.

The problem which has been reported to me is the compression is all the silly behaviour played out on the FM band all over again, doing the disservice.

6PR, a talk station at 64 kbps is excessive to say the least!

6IX have developed no digital only service so what will they do with their spectrum? If the racing board was smart, they should do a deal to lease spectrum for their racing radio service. This is a population sector that relies on radio greatly, has good connections and would be a great driver in the uptake of digital radio.

EZEK?EL writes...

only thing I am worried about is will I be able to listen to it from Melbourne to Geelong as I dont know if the range is the same as Analog, Geelong to Melbourne is my daily drive to work.. Geelong picks up Melbourne digital TV fine so i am guessing digital radio should be the same range...

Interesting you should mention this. The local broadcasters in Geelong, Grant (K-Rock/Bay) wanted to block reception of the Mt Dandenong digital radio signals by a low powered transmitter in the Geelong CBD on the same freq pumping out white noise to block reception.

Fortunately this idea and the whole policy has been stopped by the regulators.

Fortitutious coverage (as it's known) into Geelong is an inevitability with the location of transmitter site and needing throw a high signal level in that direction to cover sections of Melbourne.

There's every chance it should be heard in Geelong, but simply because DTV does is no guarantee as radiation patterns are different. Signal propagation is the same, COFDM which at a rough view requires ¼ the power of analogue.

Lime Leader writes...

It's bandwidth hogging, AAC+ v2 requires only 48 kbps to be judged excellent/perceived as a uncompressed WAV file etc.

Only if you believe the guff put forward by the codec vendors. 3rd party tests aren't so forgiving. Having heard samples of the 64k transmissions I can honestly say that I do not want to hear 48k for general transmissions (mixed audio types, music etc).

I'm considering a Tivoli Audio "NetWorks" radio – http://www.tivoliaudio.com.au/networks.html – as a new (DAB- and internet radio-enabled) clock/radio for my bedroom, and also as speakers for the Mac Mini I have there. Has anyone tried one of these? I'm keen to upgrade to a new bedroom radio and needing DAB support and built-in internet radio is as good an excuse as any. At $1000 or so it isn't an impulse buy so I'd like some affirmation from anyone who has already tried one in Australia and can post whatever issues they found with it – for digital radio and internet radio streaming particularly.

Also on the codecs, I haven't heard DAB+ yet but the main internet radio station I listen to (Radio Paradise) has a variety of streams with different codecs. See http://www.radioparadise.com/content.php?name=Listen

They have AAC+ up to 128k (and MP3 up to 192k) and the station is very careful/fussy with their encoding quality. Listening through my hifi system, definitely the 128k AAC+ stream from Radio Paradise is a clearly better sound than their 64k AAC+ (192k MP3 is great too).

Is the AAC+ used by DAB+ close enough (in parameters, any tweaking, etc) to the AAC+ used on such streaming internet stations to be a valid comparison? If so, and if I were wanting to play music from a DAB+ radio to a large hifi system, I'd definitely be hoping the radio stations here would be using AAC+ at 128k (rather than 64k or less). Try the different streams on Radio Paradise and see what you think.

Lime Leader writes...

It's bandwidth hogging, AAC+ v2 requires only 48 kbps to be judged excellent/perceived as a uncompressed WAV file etc.

Only if you are half deaf. 96kbps isn't too bad though, certainly not "CD" quality, but as good as FM.

vortex writes...

Only if you are half deaf. 96kbps isn't too bad though, certainly not "CD" quality, but as good as FM.

That is true, but considering most people currently buy cheap radios with a poor response range, when the mass market brands are available, it won't worry them (unfortunately).

Digital is largely about content, how to make it a compelling reason to switch and for AM listeners, improved signal quality around town.

Lime Leader writes...

Digital is largely about content, how to make it a compelling reason to switch and for AM listeners, improved signal quality around town.

Which is a good question... what will we be getting that's actually worth anything.

The talk of quality is all very well... but in other countries many channels just ended up being bandwidth starved and sounded worse.

Being able to tune by name is cool, but really only useful to people whom travel heaps and want to stay tuned to JJJ.

More channels.... well that could be good, but really... it just means that we get the same commercial channels, plus ABC/SBS... but community stations probably will not be able to afford the upgrade. Bit like Digital TV...

vortex writes...

More channels.... well that could be good, but really... it just means that we get the same commercial channels, plus ABC/SBS... but community stations probably will not be able to afford the upgrade. Bit like Digital TV...

That's why DAB perhaps might not be a huge big deal for most people – the same content with perhaps worse quality...
Personally I think Internet Radio will win out in the end – far more choice with decent quality too.
I just hope that the old copyright problems don't reappear... :(

Ted Harper writes about Radio Paradise...

192k MP3 is great too

As is the recently-introduced 256k MP3 stream (last time I looked it wasn't promoted on the RP website).

Tone. writes...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: once the radios are available, and the data plans are reasonably priced, Internet Radio over 3G will kill DAB+ dead, and may even take a decent sized chunk out of FM and AM radio.
I just can't help imagining rush-hour traffic. Thousands of cars crawling along the west gate freeway, all 3G connected to a handful of cell towers, all trying to stream a different 128kbit stream.

I like the thought of it, but it will never be able to support everyone switching off AM, FM and DAB and stream over the wireless internet. There simply isn't enough spectrum to go around.

Don't get me wrong: I do think YOU will get that in 3-5 years, simply as most people won't be interested. So the handful of us that do it will be fine but it just won't work if everyone does it.

vortex writes...

it just means that we get the same commercial channels, plus ABC/SBS

Well if the early offerings are anything to go by, there's actually more specialised 'niche' programming being served out. DMG's Koffee (chill music) and Dignation (dance), Austereo's Pink Radio (a short-term channel dedicated to the artist Pink) and Radar (new unsigned Australian rock) are examples.

These moves suggest that DMG and Austereo do not intend to use the new slots to simply serve up more of the same old formats.

I think we can assume that the ABC will make its existing digital music channels dig, dig jazz and dig country available on DAB+. Once again, these channels address niches that are currently not well served by Australian analogue radio.

...and there are several major players that have not as yet really shown their hand.

However, on the negative side it is rather disturbing that in the UK, where DAB has been running for some 10 years, DAB is still not main-stream. In fact, a number of major radio players in the UK have withdrawn from the DAB space in recent years, closing their stations.

DAB+ is supposed to have commenced commercial broadcasting in Melbourne today.

Can someone out there give us a rundown of the launch channels that are now supposedly on air?

cable99 writes...

However, on the negative side it is rather disturbing that in the UK, where DAB has been running for some 10 years, DAB is still not main-stream.
Yeah, it is very sad. I reckon the main issue is that car manufacturers don't put them in as standard – or even an option! If people had been "force-fed" DAB this way, they'd be much more likely to buy DAB radios for their home, office, etc. as well. The few people there I know that did buy one love it!

And of course few new cars you can't even change the radio in because it is completely integrated. So even though some models are available, few could fit one if they wanted to.

Not to mention few of the quality brands come up out with radios. Some higher-end micro sets have them built in, but why can't I buy a $400 Denon or Sony DAB stereo component?

Most people just don't care enough about radio. People *love* their big screen TVs, DVD collections and Tivos, but they have as much emotional connection to their radios as they do to their toaster. It is just a box that you turn on to break the silence when you have nothing better to do...

cable99 writes...

DAB+ is supposed to have commenced commercial broadcasting in Melbourne today.

Can someone out there give us a rundown of the launch channels that are now supposedly on air?

Everything you expected plus (well, most would expect this in radio), Sydney's 96.1 The Edge, known as The Edge Digital, running commercial hip hop.

Apparently bit rates for Fairfax's 3AW & Magic are poor.

cable99 writes...

However, on the negative side it is rather disturbing that in the UK, where DAB has been running for some 10 years, DAB is still not main-stream. In fact, a number of major radio players in the UK have withdrawn from the DAB space in recent years, closing their stations.

It was marketed poorly, commercial stations lagged years behind the BBC, excuse 3, 4 etc.

That's why you've largely heard nothing so far in Aust, there needs to be radios in many shops and the testing has to be completed.

You are getting digital radio as soon as it's possible, tower owners have and continue to replace transmission arrays to cater for it and while this is happening (and before), component testing has been underway, so when it launches, there's still the testing of the radiation pattern/interference to follow.

curtly writes...

The extra info will be available on some fairly inexpensive models (ours is $499 and displays the info) but more expensive ones in the future will have colour screens and album artwork etc.

http://www.msml.com.au/

$499 can be expensive. consider how much it cost for a hd set top box to tv?

also the mr-2000 looks interesting. at its back there is a coax socket. will this be an output to a separate DAC for decoding?

Melbourne rundown (commenced 8:30am)...

CHANNEL 9A:
Sport 927 (64kbps)
SEN (80kbps)
3MP (80kbps)
Nova 100 (64kbps)
Vega 91.5 (64kbps)
NovaNation (64kbps)
Koffee (64kbps)

CHANNEL 9B:
3AW (64kbps)
Magic (96kbps)
3AW+ (48kbps)
Magic+ (48kbps)
Fox FM (64kbps)
Triple M (64kbps)
Pink Radio (64kbps)
Radar Radio (64kbps)
Gold 104 (80kbps)
Mix 101.1 (80kbps)
The Edge (80kbps)

Big :D for you l0y, very much appreciate to see what they're doing.

I've been reading reports elsewhere that the main channels of Fairfax Radio's AW and Magic as sounding very poor, is that true?

Also, their digital only channels were noted as FN1 and FN2, that'd obviously changed when you did a check.

And, this is all AAC+ v2 audio format?

Yes, all stations are aacPlus and have very similar sound quality. (As for V2, bitrates 56kbps and over can't run at V2.) Personally...connecting the radio to big speakers...they're not sounding very good at all. The treble has a lot of *ring* to it.

64kbps aacplus @ 44.1k sample rate for example has a frequency response of up to 20.3k, and sounds quite good. ALL stations (except Magic) are nowhere near this. Playing with an accplus encoder and analyser, I've matched the audio to what I believe them to REALLY be streaming at.

64kbps streams ------> audio matched to 40k V1 @ 48khz s/r.
80kbps streams ------> audio matched to 56k @ 48khz s/r.
3MP (80kbps) stream -> audio matched to 64k @ 48khz s/r.

I'm not sure if this is temporary, if the radio is "downgrading" the audio, or what the hell is going on, but I do know it ain't the audio it's meant to be, and if it remains like this, we are being mislead with false bitrates and audio that is barely better than FM and far from their so called "CD Quality". If someone who knows more can test and verify this (or explain what's going on), I'd be very interested to know their findings.

My only thought the radio reports the total bandwidth of transmission data, not just the audio bandwidth?

The rest is for the scrolling text and if metadata is required. It's COFDM modulation like DTV, so guessing there's same data characteristics.

That sux! I thought we were meant to LEARN from the UK failures, not use audio that can be compared to FM.

aacPlus starts to sound real good at 80kbps and above, not 40kbps :-(

Also what I think you'll find they are doing is reserving 15-25kbps of their bandwidth for their extended data feeds like image slideshows and other "datacasting" features.

So the bandwidth they claim is the total bandwidth and not the bandwidth actually used to encode the audio!

What a massive disappointment all round! I guess we should have realised this was going to happen!

l0y writes...

64kbps aacplus @ 44.1k sample rate for example has a frequency response of up to 20.3k, and sounds quite good.

SBR involves transmitting the main LC component of the audio at half the sample rate of the input source (ie, 44k input results in the LC component being 22k sample which is going to provide roughly 10.5kHz of audio). Anything above the cutoff is 'recreated' by taking the lower 10.5kHz and extrapolating it up above the cut off frequency using the low bit rate (typically 2 – 3 kbit/sec) SBR hints stream.

The 'frequency response of up to 20.3k' is completely artificial and does not necessarily bear any resemblance to what went into the encoder and will drive any THD measurements to alarmingly high levels.

Engineers at Coding Technologies and Fraunhofer recommend the following:

SBR + PS + AAC – 48kbit and lower
SBR + AAC – 48kbit to 72kbit
AAC – 72kbit and higher.

SBR and PS are techniques to mask the inability of AAC to code 'good' quality audio at very low bit rates. If one has the bits to use it is best to not employ SBR and/or PS as a more accurate rendering of the source will be given.

Hi ThePMan, I know exactly what you're saying, I was just using the frequency rolloff as a reference to the characteristics of that bitrate.

Anyway, basically what I'm saying is, without a minimum of 80kbps aacplus dedicated to audio, there is no real benefit over FM. And with 40kbps of audio, I'd rather listen to 128k mp3.

Really they should be using 96kbps AAC (not aacplus) At 96kbps and above AAC is vastly superior (real not fake treble). Some studies even show that at 80kbps AAC is better.

The stations that are running at 80kbps should hopefully be pushing at least 64kbps of aacplus audio – I can't understand why they are sounding bad as well unless they have set their audio bitrate to 32kbps or something!

It will be very interesting to see what the ABC do – I can't imagine they will touch aacplus for Classical Music for example. Will sound awful!

BofH writes...

Really they should be using 96kbps AAC
Really, they should be using at least 160kbps AAC; even 128 is full of nasties, so 96 would be even worse. :(

What is the problem, lack of frequencies? Or just too cheap to buy and run more multiplexes?

Anyone know?

I think it's called putting quantity over quality with more bandwidth being allocated to multimedia capabilities of the service (image slideshows, data feeds such as realtime traffic/weather info) with less emphasis on audio quality. Someone in the know might like to confirm if they are running as many multiplexes as they are entitled to in each city.

Melbourne's currently running two out of a maximum three muxes; however, the third mux is reserved for the ABC/SBS and they have yet to commence broadcasting on DAB+.

I found these documents:

http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310504

Sounds like ACMA only assigned 2-3 channels and thus multiplexes per capital city. That's really, really sad.

The main concern seems to be interference with analog and digital TV stations. I can see that being much more of an issue along the crowded eastern seaboard with all of its repeaters; around Adelaide I would imagine that to be much less of an issue, but we only get two channels assigned!

London has more analog and digital TV channels in use and they managed to find room for four multiplexes.

All very strange...

Just did a DAB scan on my pure evoke flow 1.5 FW on the Central Coast and can't pick up anything.
Maybe im doing something wrong?
Id assume I should be able to pickup any Sydney DAB/DAB+ signals?

l0y writes...

and far from their so called "CD Quality".

I love the way you put that in quotation marks... so show us where CRA have once said or printed "CD Quality" in reference to the launch of DAB+.

Rather, I'll show you've either been misled – or misled yourself. Nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE in any official/legal documentation or media releases/publicity/advertisements has DAB+ *ever* been touted as CD Quality. In fact, the term all along has been "Crystal Clear".

Best check your facts first before potentionally misleading others here as well...

radioengineer writes...

I love the way you put that in quotation marks... so show us where CRA have once said or printed "CD Quality" in reference to the launch of DAB+.

Rather, I'll show you've either been misled – or misled yourself. Nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE in any official/legal documentation or media releases/publicity/advertisements has DAB+ *ever* been touted as CD Quality. In fact, the term all along has been "Crystal Clear".

Best check your facts first before potentionally misleading others here as well...

Hello radioengineer, I never actually mentioned the CRA, I was referring to one of the stations currently on digital- describing their audio as "CD quality sound". If you don't know which one, maybe you should do some research. But, seeing as you did mention CRA, I thought I'd have a quick look for myself. Here you go:

http://www.commercialradio.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1011

Digital is a new way of transmitting and receiving radio signals. It turns sound and data into digital signals at the transmission end. These are broadcast over the airwaves and a digital radio receiver decodes the signal into CD quality sound with data enhancements including text information and graphics. Listeners will need to buy a digital radio receiver to tune in, as existing analogue AM/FM receivers cannot tune digital.

Seeing as you're calling yourself radioengineer, can you confirm the following bitrates are correct for these digital only/FM stations on digital, please?:

Nova 100 (64kbps) (AUDIO: 48kbps)
Vega 91.5 (64kbps) (AUDIO: 48kbps)
NovaNation (64kbps) (AUDIO: 48kbps)
Koffee (64kbps) (AUDIO: 48kbps)
Fox FM (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
Triple M (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
Pink Radio (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
Radar Radio (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
Gold 104 (80kbps) (AUDIO: 56kbps)
Mix 101.1 (80kbps) (AUDIO: 56kbps)

EDIT: For those in Perth, here's a few from there:

Nova 93.7 (64kbps) (AUDIO: 56kbps)
NovaNation (64kbps) (AUDIO: 48kbps)
6IX (64kbps) (AUDIO: appears to be 64kbps)
92.9 (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
Pink Radio (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
Radar Radio (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)
96FM (64kbps) (AUDIO: 48kbps)
96FM HD (128kbps) (AUDIO: somewhere between 80-128kbps)
Mix 94.5 (64kbps) (AUDIO: 40kbps)

This isn't a dig at anyone...I'm just as disappointed that this is all the bandwidth they are using/allowed to use for audio. Looks like the biggest winners will be the AM stations.

radioengineer writes...

Best check your facts first before potentionally misleading others here as well...

Hi alanh. If that is you, perhaps you should address your own bits of 'misleading' on the dtvforum before you start posting the same crap here.

One thing I've noticed that's been completely lacking at the moment, is the involvement of any community channels.

@Baswell: If the military's willing to relinquish channel 13 and/or when analogue TV shuts down, then they'll have more bandwidth to play with. At the moment, I can't figure out how they'd get frequencies for the Central Coast and Wollongong seeing that the Sydney area's already maxed out from just Sydney stations alone.

@Theoutsider: Sydney is currently only running test transmissions (i.e. from a different tower and at a lower power). DAB+ services officially commence on May 30. Even when that day comes though, you still may not be able to get anything as you are out of the Sydney licence area and the digital transmissions are lower power than the existing analogue services.

@Radioengineer: Oh, they didn't say it was "CD Quality"--they did one better. And I quote... The new stations will be streamed on computers and internet-enabled phones in the Audio Coding Plus (AACPlus) format, making the sound “CD quality plus,” according to Cath O’Connor.

They're claiming that their 64kbps streams are actually better than 1411kbps audio CDs! Link: http://www.digital-media.net.au/Article/DMG-launches-digital-offerings/477537.aspx

Cath O'Connor is on the board of directors of CRA. Talk about false advertising...

There's an article from New Zealand on this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wired/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501834&objectid=10569787

Just as Australia has absorbed the lessons of overseas digital radio pioneers, New Zealand's radio industry would do well to learn from the experience of its transtasman counterpart.

I hope they're reading this in NZ, because I don't think we've learned much at all. We're making the same mistakes they did overseas i.e.

• Promising CD quality audio
• Talking up a quality of service that simply doesn't exist and will set people up for disappointment
• At this stage (unless it's already full power) reception that's nowhere near as reliable as FM (I've tested this on the go switching between FM and Digital).

Oh, and seeing as it's a Gadget forum, mine is the Sangean DPR-69 Plus.

Not a bad little unit. Has a lousy speaker, but a stereo output socket makes up for that. Screen is small, but can display track title, date & time, frequency, bitrate & format, signal meter (digital only).

baswell writes...

Really, they should be using at least 160kbps AAC; even 128 is full of nasties, so 96 would be even worse. :(

TV were given their spectrum on a like for like basis regardless to if it was necessary to rebroadcast 1 analogue signal.

7 MHz analogue became 7 MHz on digital

FM has a 200 kHz bandwidth ie. service on 89.0 occupies from 88.9 to 89.1, if that was extrapolated to digital, I estimate (and I could be calculated too simplistically, I'm not an expert) a total rate of 150 kbps for each station should've been allocated.

That does nothing for AM stations, so the current policy plods would say it's great what we've been given now.

What is the problem, lack of frequencies? Or just too cheap to buy and run more multiplexes?

There is a severe lack of frequencies, a report in the middle of the 20 th century for the Commonwealth Govt foretold that FM radio services would be in the UHF part of spectrum, so TV licences were duly issued on VHF channels 3, 4, 5.

Lo and behold, the Govt of the day when FM was introduced realised they had to be in the ballpark of worldwide FM audio operation and shifted it back to 88 – 108 MHz where it subsequently clashed with TV, a fact that Sydney, Perth, Adelaide still suffer with today (ie. artificial restriction of FM band due to TV).

Fast forward to digital and you have TV stations on VHF 9A and now radio stations as well.

This has resulted in most complicated planning to co-exist with the TV 9A allocations (policy of the like not used nor needed previously in Aus and not wanted again by media I'll wager), most likely to the detriment of digital radio.

Wherever possible, I believe all competing use of spectrum should be kept discrete.

The opportunity exists for all digital radio to be allocated 230 – 240 MHz, all the Commonwealth needs to do is shift any remaining Defence use off there. The money spent for this would be quickly recouped by the likely increase of licence fees paid to the Commonwealth which are based on profit of stations.

45 slots for 128 kbps allocations would be possible.

Latest switch-on schedule:

Perth – 4 May
Melbourne – 11 May
Adelaide – 18 May
Brisbane – 25 May
Sydney – 30 May

Adelaide, especially, seems to be a bit of a moving feast.

radioengineer writes...

Nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE in any official/legal documentation or media releases/publicity/advertisements has DAB+ *ever* been touted as CD Quality.

Looks like nobody told:

DMG's Nova (see http://is.gd/z7I0 – search for "CD quality")

or

Fairfax (see http://is.gd/z7Jq – search for "CD-quality")

re. CD quality phrase.

The big problem is where those with zero or little engineering knowledge start mixing engineering commonsense with marketing double speak.

The programmers of a certain network's digital stations have already been caught out wading into the world of engineering and broadcast policy.

Is it only Adelaide's date which has changed? Thought the public releases of the switch on have been always 4, 11, 25 and 30 May?

Wow. Thanks for the links, I stand corrected, this (CD Quality) situation is truly out of hand. How can they get it so wrong by making such a false statement?????

baswell writes...

I found these documents:

http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310504

Ah, so you have found the documents of pain. Note carefully the comparison of the radiation patterns of theory (in print) and the actual antenna gain. To not exceed the theoretical has resulted in compromised transmission arrays. Adjacent regional broadcasters may disagree but that leads me to my next point.

Reading the feedback here and across other websites where discussion of this switch on is taking place, many feel radio is doomed to the internet and other new media. If that's the case, why are licence areas which had their genesis in the 1920/1930's being adhered to for this new digital world which knows no boundaries of these artificial licence areas?

Practically, it's because of this very lack of spectrum, adjacent markets which missed out need to be protected, which goes back to my claim that 10 MHz of discrete spectrum is needed to avoid this and have all markets on a level playing field concurrently.

Sounds like ACMA only assigned 2-3 channels and thus multiplexes per capital city. That's really, really sad.

The multiplexes were allocated in multiples of 7 commercial stations (cat 1 multiplex), if a city has 7 commercials or less, 1 multiplex, 8 and more gets 2.

Other two-ninths are for community, national b'casters operate on a discrete multiplex.

Also, be aware a major factor contributing to the current situation is the lack of practical understanding ACMA has compared to the reality.

Lime Leader writes...

It's bandwidth hogging, AAC+ v2 requires only 48 kbps to be judged excellent/perceived as a uncompressed WAV file etc.

The bit rate your radio displays is the *total* bitrate for that sub-channel. In reality the PAD rate is set probably set to 8 or 16 kbps, so in effect the audio is left with 48 kbps (or whatever is left over) of bandwidth.

It's up to the broadcaster to decide whether to allocate the PAD bandwidth dynamically or leave it as a static rate.

PAD = Program Associated Data (Text, Pictures, etc..)

Lime Leader writes...

To not exceed the theoretical has resulted in compromised transmission arrays.
Yeah, I was really surprised to see such stringent rules on paper that people came up with years ago. What is wrong with setting some safe limits and then start adjusting to get the best results? I would have thought the transmitters would have been on for this reason for months in a "soft launch" to work it all out before the marketing starts. But that would be too logical, wouldn't it?

many feel radio is doomed to the internet and other new media
Many are wrong! :) Yeah, radio will lose market share, but doomed is the wrong word. If we can't find a way to broadcast a couple of dozen channels at a reasonable bit rate, how are we supposed to all ditch radio for individual streaming over 3G? If people are reluctant to spend $250 on a digital radio, how can we expect them to spend many times that on a wireless IP entertainment system in their cars?

Broadcast radio will be with us and very popular and profitable for a long time. It will just be part of a new mix.

why are licence areas which had their genesis in the 1920/1930's being adhered to for this new digital world which knows no boundaries
There is something to be said for local content. We are hurd animals and we love discussing what Alan Jones said on the radio this morning about a local politician. It will be a sad day when we lose that.

That said: DAB makes it easy to extend your coverage area and I would say many rural areas would be delighted to have something to listen to other than the local FM amateur hour or the, ehrm, "interesting" mix of music on Cruise 1323.

The multiplexes were allocated in multiples of 7 commercial stations (cat 1 multiplex), if a city has 7 commercials or less, 1 multiplex, 8 and more gets 2.
That's the reasoning!? Why not put in as many as fit everywhere and jack up the quality where there are not that many stations?

So sad, it could have been a great, revitalising move for radio. But like everywhere else in the world, it is getting completely botched.

davek writes...

In reality the PAD rate is set probably set to 8 or 16 kbps, so in effect the audio is left with 48 kbps (or whatever is left over) of bandwidth.
Really? I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

None of the current radios can even display album art and here's a new flash for the station managers: people don't sit there watching the radio; they turn it on and go do whatever else they were going to do. It is not important enough to give up so many bits for.

The only place where that might be different is in cars (where you don't want to distract people with scrolling text and images) or in the office, where they might as well go to your website for news.

I love radio and spent many years working in it and this sort of incompetence and being out of touch with the market almost makes me angry.

davek writes...

The bit rate your radio displays is the *total* bitrate for that sub-channel. In reality the PAD rate is set probably set to 8 or 16 kbps, so in effect the audio is left with 48 kbps (or whatever is left over) of bandwidth.

That's true, my bandwidth hogging point was based on talk station 6PR running at 64 kbps total transmitted data. Even packing in the PAD, I shouldn't think a speech based station needs that much.

So long as there's not artifact like sounds, I think most AM listeners would be grateful it's on digital.

That's true baswell, radio is largely a background medium – as well as being immediate and portable, these are the strengths that should be capitalised upon the most.

The other features will suit some but not a majority.

I agree with your point about localism for radio and rather than allowing holus bolus access to other markets or significant overspill for licencees to target other areas, there would have to be a more creative and firm requirement to primarily provide content to the home market.

Back to digital radio in earnest, looks like the discussion here has been referenced in other forums with a direct comment to the Nova Nation forum about total bandwidth rather than audio bandwidth being displayed on radios (which I did not write).

Loopy's comments at end page one:
http://www.novanation.com.au/Discussion_Why-is-nt-NovaNation-on-digital-radio-yet_46

Lime Leader writes...

Loopy's comments at end page one:

I like NovaNation's response:
as much as we'd love to throw all of our available bandwidth to the audio, we actually have to allow for other things (think admin data) just to make sure it gets to you!

Seriously? You need 16kbps for housekeeping on top of what is already in the standard? I think not! What rubbish...

The services tables etc for the entire mux would be around 15 – 30 kbit/sec. Text, time stamps (not needed) and a few other goodies would take around 1 to 2 kilobits/sec out of the 64k the actual program is allocated leaving the listener with in excess of 60kbit/sec. The only reason I can see the need for 16kbit/sec to be chomped out of that 64kbit/sec is for carrying pictures or an excessively high repeat rate of text data.

A large junk-mail Harvey Norman catalogue has arrived in my letter box. Pages 2-3 are devoted to advertising a range of 10 different DAB+ receivers that are apparently being offered for sale at HN stores.

The catalogue is online at http://is.gd/znNb

My inclination is to probably buy at the cheapest entry point, ie the Bush priced at $149, to get access to the digital streams.

In the longer term I would get something better when the market has matured and when, presumably, prices for equipment have dropped and feature sets have improved.

Is there any strong reason to pay a little more at this point and get, say, the Sangean for $239? It seems that the Sangean does not have the pause/rewind function whereas the Bush does.

Says that catalouge is not available in my location. Is that Bush radio the one with a 2.5mm earphone jacket? If so, sounds like it's only a mono jack...might wanna check on that, unless you're happy listening in mono with the small inbuilt speaker.

The Sangean DPR-69 uses a lousy speaker too, but has a 3.5mm stereo output to connect to headphones or an amp. And it also has FM, and can recharge rechargeable batteries (handy because aacplus chews through them).

baswell writes...

None of the current radios can even display album art and here's a new flash for the station managers: people don't sit there watching the radio; they turn it on and go do whatever else they were going to do. It is not important enough to give up so many bits for.

Actually this came up in discussion today .. don't be surprised if you see X-PAD data only set to 8 kbps to begin with, as you are right there are no radios with picture displays(at the moment .. they will be coming).

baswell writes...

Seriously? You need 16kbps for housekeeping on top of what is already in the standard? I think not! What rubbish...

I think whoever is typing those answers for NovaNation doesn't really grasp what the 16kpbs data rate is actually for.

In any case, if it's all rubbish the AM transmitters will remain on just for you :)

davek writes...

In any case, if it's all rubbish the AM transmitters will remain on just for you :)

AFAIK there is no plan to even consider switching off a single analogue transmission. Analogue transmissions aren't going anywhere any time near or far at this point.

davek writes...

there are no radios with picture displays(at the moment .. they will be coming).
I think they have been coming for over 9 years now in the UK. :)

And either way, the value of it is low as few people will sit there and watch it. Also: on the small displays, you will also be able to display a different picture every minute at 1kbps, no need for 8, let alone 16. Text needs virtually no bandwidth at all.

It is a needless waste that will likely do the exact opposite of what the extra data was designed to do: the resulting poor sound quality and/or lower number of stations will not speed up uptake, it will slow it.

Is there anything to prevent them bombarding the supplementry data channel with graphic & text ads?

Dan.

I don't believe there is any regulation WRT the amount of advertising that could be carried by it.

ThePMan writes...

I don't believe there is any regulation WRT the amount of advertising that could be carried by it.
I have not seen any either.

In the Netherlands, where RDS is very common, they started with this on radio text, a feature that car radios (for obvious reasons) didn't have. To overcome that, they started constantly changing station name, displaying one or two words at a time. This is really, really, annoying.

Imagine your large-screen car radio, like in the Prius, showing preset names based on station name, and that name was whatever the station name was at time of storing. Yeah, translating to Adelaide terms, to select Mix 102.3, you would have to select "New Puratap".

I would hope that kind of nonsense doesn't become commonplace here! (nor that I have given anyone any ideas!)

davek writes...

baswell writes...

I think whoever is typing those answers for NovaNation doesn't really grasp what the 16kpbs data rate is actually for.

That's because it's the program and music people who are writing those answers, not enough technical input.

Most people outside engineering at a radio station have their eyes glaze over when bits and bytes are discussed.

ThePMan writes...

I don't believe there is any regulation WRT the amount of advertising that could be carried by it.

That's right, only existing broadcasting laws apply. Nothing specifies text.

If the laws were drafted in more detail, we might not have seen stations allowed to carve up their 128 kbps into multiple audio channels.

baswell writes...

In the Netherlands, where RDS is very common, they started with this on radio text, a feature that car radios (for obvious reasons) didn't have.

I've seen a few cars that have RDS radiotext... e.g. my car:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6315/clipboard01ggr.jpg

Vega, Nova, etc. use it to display song names.

I just purchased the Bush BR10DAB cheapie ($149) from Hardly Normal.

l0y writes...

Says that catalouge is not available in my location.

Enter the postcode for a major city. It's a national catalog.

Is that Bush radio the one with a 2.5mm earphone jacket?

Yes

If so, sounds like it's only a mono jack.

It's stereo. Why would you think it's not? Almost all 2.5mm equipment is stereo these days. (And that's been the case since the 1980s!)

The Sangean DPR-69 uses a lousy speaker too, but has a 3.5mm stereo output

3.5mm? That would be unusual. I can assure you that it's a regular 2.5mm jack.

connect to headphones or an amp.

Well, there's no dedicated amp output (ie with a pre-amp fixed volume for feeding the amp – it's simply a 2.5mm socket with variable volume designed primarily for earphone use. But it can feed an amp – just as the Bush can.

it also has FM

Yep. The Bush does too. The Bush has 20 station presets (10 DAB, 10 FM) whereas the Sangean DPR-69 has 10 (5 DAB, 5 FM).

can recharge rechargeable batteries

Yes, that's a nice feature that the Bush does not have. However, I'll be mostly using the Bush in the kitchen – with its supplied AC adaptor.

aacplus chews through them

It's early days yet – the Bush requires 4xC-size batteries. Just for research purposes I've had it running on them for about 8 hours so far. I checked the battery condition with a multimeter and the batts (cheapies from WOW) are still in excellent shape.

However, I do note that when running on batteries, the Bush disables the display after 20 secs (it can be re-activated by pressing a control button). In AC mode the display stays on all the time (possibly annoying if you intend to use the radio in the bedroom).

Be careful of the Hardly Normal catalog descriptions. The catalog claims that the Bush BR10DAB has pause and rewind functions. It doesn't. The catalog also says that the Bush has a single-line display. In fact, it is two-line (same as the Sangean DPR69). Also, the paper catalog claims the Bush has an electronic program guide. It doesn't (although it displays track info). Fortunately the online version of the catalog has dropped the EPG claim.

One facility that I was not expecting on the Bush is that it can interpret RDS text info on the FM band. I found varying degrees of info being transmitted on three of the FM network stations.

• DMG stations are fully utilising the medium, with music track info, time/date and station identity. (Nova describes its music genre as "Easy Listening" – are they kidding?)
• ARN stations are showing station ID and using the "track info" space to promote the station website – no track info. Time/date is not carried. (MIX describes its music genre ar "Pop" – well, if that's wha "the best of 70s 80s 90s is , perhaps they're right.)
• Fresh, a community FM station is carrying station ID and using the text info line to advertise a premium SMS number to which you can send an SMS and then receive track info. No time/date carried. (Genre described as Pop – they're joking, right? Listen here http://streamhq.adam.com.au:8000/FreshFM.m3u to see what I mean!)

One little niggle with the Bush:

There's a manual method for setting the time but the clock loses its setting whenever you turn the radio off. The DAB stations all carry the time, so tuning to any of these will automatically reset the clock correctly. However, if you are in an FM-only area, it's pot luck as to whether the station you select carries clock info. If it doesn't, the only way to get the time to display correctly is to manually ste the clock (then lose the time when you next turn the radio off).

Finally, to answer my own question:

cable99 writes...

Is there any strong reason to pay a little more at this point and get, say, the Sangean for $239?

In fact, there is a substantial price gap – at HN, $149 vs $239, or $90 difference.

In my view there is no reason to pay more – unless the Sangean battery recharge function is important to you.

By the way, I have owned a couple of Sangean analogue radios in the past. The quality is nothing special. I would far prefer a Sony (I have several Sony analogue radios) – but I don't think Sony is in the DAB+ business.

So my strategy for now, given that I want to be into DAB on the ground floor, is buy the cheapest DAB+ radio available (which I have done) then wait for the market to mature (which should produce more feature-rich equipment at a better price point).

I do, however, fear that DAB+ won't travel too well, if experiences in other parts of the world are anything to go by. Notably, mainstream brands like Sony, Panasonic etc have clearly decided that the market is too small to chase. I have an old car with an AM stereo radio – I haven't noticed ANY AM radio stations broadcasting in stereo for years now. I hope DAB+ doesn't fade just as fast as AM Stereo. Another reason not to invest heavily in high-end receivers for the time being.

PS: I find the Bush system for accessing its preset stations quite cumbersome. It takes up to 6 button presses to access a given preset station.... and scanning for stations that are not preset can only be done in one direction, so conceivably you might have to search through every station on the dial before you hit on the one you want. If you frequently change stations, you might prefer to avoid buying the Bush in favour of a device that has one-button access to each preset station.

cable99 writes...

3.5mm? That would be unusual. I can assure you that it's a regular 2.5mm jack.

No – 3.5mm is the 'regular' size. 2.5mm is unusual but it does exist, mainly as a mono (2 pole) connector.

Thanks for the review of the Bush BTW :)

Much appreciated

angryofmayfair writes...

No – 3.5mm is the 'regular' size.

What measurement do you get when you put calipers on a 'regular' stereo headphone plug? I get 2.5mm.

angryofmayfair writes...

Thanks for the review of the Bush BTW :)

No problemo!

cable99 writes...

Fresh, a community FM station is carrying station ID and using the text info line to advertise a premium SMS number to which you can send an SMS and then receive track info. No time/date carried. (Genre described as Pop – they're joking, right? Listen here http://streamhq.adam.com.au:8000/FreshFM.m3u to see what I mean!)

Pop is close. It's mostly dance, night club sort of music – techno/trance, etc.

Although I did tune to them (with my Sangean DPR99) earlier today and wondered if I was on the right station! Wasn't the usual fare...

Anyhow, Cable99, good that you like the radio. Sounds like great value for money.

Have you tried hooking it up to a decent amp and speakers to see what you think?

Netlust writes...

Have you tried hooking it up to a decent amp and speakers to see what you think?

It's acceptable – but certainly not brilliant.

With the equalizer on the amp set flat it's noticeably lacking in the bass department while trebles are marginally deficient. However, this can all be fixed by winding up the low-end bass gain.

On the plus side, there's no noticeable interference – nice clean sound with no hum or hisses etc.

I believe that the standard jack size is 3.5mm (i.e. as used by computers, iPods, etc.).

As for the genres identified on RDS, there is a fixed list of 32 genres stations can choose from. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Data_System#Program_Types

In Sydney I get RDS from Vega, The Edge, Wave FM, Nova, i98FM, WSFM (on all three of their frequencies), Hope 103.2, 2Day, Star, Triple M and Mix. Nova's genre here is listed as "varied".

Bankstown's community radio station is also transmitting RDS, but I assume it's unintentional given that their station name goes:
| RADIO | DATA | SYSTEM | CODER | -------- | DEMO | VERSION | :p.

cable99 writes...

With the equalizer set flat it's noticeably lacking in the bass department while trebles are marginally deficient.

That must be a characteristic of that particular model – limited frequency response, not DAB+. My speakers have a very even frequency response to well below 30 Hz (room standing waves not withstanding, though I've tried to minimise these with optimal positioning). I was surprised by the window rattling bass available at volume. It might depend on what station you're listening to.

Some stations I suspect "process" their signal for more punch, too. ABC Classic I would imagine would have no such processing and have a higher bitrate. Should be interesting!

Seems test broadcasts in Adelaide were turned off as of last night. Might have to wait until the official launch on Monday now :(.

Netlust writes...

ABC Classic I would imagine would have no such processing
Classical radio is an interesting subject. It is full of really stuck up, elitist know-it-alls doing the programming and engineering. (And the complaining in equally elitist magazines) Thou shalt not use compression, thou shalt not play the same piece too often. Thou must leave several seconds of silence between announcer and music. Play whole concertos. Announce all the details about composer, piece, orchestra, conductor, soloist and label.

I used to do engineering and programming at Classic FM in the Netherlands. (have a listen to it; it is in the iTunes directory and sounds brilliant) The more we broke those rules, the more popular we got. We played the most popular and well known 3-5 minutes parts several times a day, with tracks playing back to back.

And you should have seen the flickering lights on our Inovonics 250! Turns out the majority of people didn't care, they were just happy to hear music over the engine and wind noise in their cars or little old radios in their sheds or kitchens. I only wish I could have gotten budget to get a faster AGC than on the stock 250.

Sure, we lost the last of our snobby listeners to public Radio 4, but you can't argue with popularity. (well you could, but you'd be wrong, as the great contemporary poet R. Williams puts it.)

That is my take on the subject of processing classical music stations anyway. :)

baswell writes...

We played the most popular and well known 3-5 minutes parts several times a day, with tracks playing back to back.

Beethoven would be turning over in his grave. Heck, *I'd* be turning over in my grave and I'm not even dead yet! :) :).

Classical music is generally acoustic (as opposed to electronic) and so altering the frequency balance seems inappropriate. Playing short segments of it would be like taking 20 second snippets out of a pop music track. I suppose it doesn't matter if you're just using it as background music, but if focusing on it in a quiet environment, something well recorded at a good bitrate, etc., would be ideal.

I don't think it's a matter of snobbery or elitism, just the nature of classical music. The lengthy pieces are too long for many in today's environment where the time is rarely available to focus on such things. I don't have the time anymore, as much as I regret that. Maintaining just *one* snobby station for the minority out of the ABC's arsenal of stations should be OK – after all, there's no other station to fall back upon :) :). I realise that if Classic FM was a commercial station, it probably wouldn't be viable. But then the ABC isn't a commercial network :).

Having said all that, I do like the new stations "Koffee" and "Novanation"!

Netlust writes...

Classical music is generally acoustic (as opposed to electronic) and so altering the frequency balance seems inappropriate.
The goal in our case wasn't adjusting the frequency balance; it is compressing the dynamic range so you can hear it in noisy environments, to use as backround, light entertainment.

Pop stations use it also to make bass "boom" and things like that. I always adjusted to avoid that happening; keep it sounding as natural as possible, but make the soft parts louder so you can hear them.

What more traditional stations do, and I am sure so does the ABC, is for the technician to ride the fader up and down and then there will at the very least be a limiter to avoid over-modulation (if he isn't fast enough on the fader) and a small amount of broad-band compression. (maybe 2:1 or 4:1)

We used the same fader-riding method when recording into the automation system, as a first step. I'd often also put a high-pass filter on it at 40Hz or so, which FM can't reproduce anyway. Especially with live recordings or environments like churches there was a lot of low frequency rumble, which, if amplified to make the last faint note on a violin or oboe audible would wreak havoc on our audio encoding. (the studio-transmitter link was satellite using 256kbit MP2. This was the only compressed step, we went from CD to linear AIFF in our automation system.)

Playing short segments of it would be like taking 20 second snippets out of a pop music track.
I see it as playing one song from a pop album. We would play the entire adagio or allegro, etc. from a concerto. Some were two minutes, some were eight or nine. We wouldn't cut up individual movements.

Maintaining just *one* snobby station for the minority out of the ABC's arsenal of stations should be OK – after all, there's no other station to fall back upon
I agree, though even the ABC can do the best of both worlds. Play "short and sweet" with less dynamic range during work hours and have some time for full concertos in the evenings and weekends. That's the kind of thing public radio should do, IMHO.

Or better yet: have two classical stations catering for both styles, something entirely feasible on DAB if ACMA wasn't so conservative about how much frequency space is really available.

but if focusing on it in a quiet environment, something well recorded at a good bitrate, etc., would be ideal.
That's why they invented CDs! :)

Research showed that we introduced a lot of people to classical music and they were buying and enjoying the full concertos on CDs at home.

Our strategy paid the bills and made classical music more accessible!

And don't forget, just because you like your classical the way you do does not make you elitist or snob; you just like what you like. An elitist snob to me is someone who looks down on people who like their classical served up in a happy meal. ;-)

Netlust writes...

Having said all that, I do like the new stations "Koffee" and "Novanation"!

Perhaps my diversion is more suited to my post here being shifted to the music forum:

But what is the feeling from 'emerging' bands (apologies for that label) about Radar Radio?

Is it generating discussion in the right sectors of the music biz? Are people listening to it?

Netlust writes...

after all, there's no other station to fall back upon

For classical music in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane & Adelaide (foothills), there's 2MBS, 3MBS, 4MBS, 5MBS.

All separate community licences.

Lime Leader writes...

Adelaide (foothills)

foothills? You should be able to get it all over adelaide

Lime Leader writes...

For classical music in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane & Adelaide (foothills), there's 2MBS, 3MBS, 4MBS, 5MBS.

All separate community licences.

Oops. You are right. I spoke too soon! But whether or not these will go digital remains to be seen.

baswell writes...

Our strategy paid the bills and made classical music more accessible!

That can't be a bad thing then! :)

ThePMan writes...

AFAIK there is no plan to even consider switching off a single analogue transmission. Analogue transmissions aren't going anywhere any time near or far at this point.

So people in those apartments within 200 metres or so of the 2UE/2SM tower at Homebush will continue to receive either Mike Carlton/Sandy Aloisi or Grant Goldman through their toasters in the morning? ;)

Yes, you are right! Even people that have published articles in electronics magazines will continue to receive it.... no doubt much to their despair. LOL

I want to get into DAB+ Radio here in Adelaide, however it looks like I may be waiting for the product I want to come along.

That is a component sized unit that I can put with my Home Theater Gear, that allows an external antenna input, and must have a optical or coxial digital output to my surround amp. An OSD would also be handy.

Thought I may have had this covered with the Onkyo DAB+ addon coming out in July, however it uses some special type connection that can only be used with an Onkyo Receiver. Which is pointless for me as I have a Denon Receiver.

Was hoping Evoke made one as the Evoke Flow got reviewed as the best DAB+ Radio currently on the market but no joy. And the Arcam FMJ T32 has not digital output and its limited DAB+ features and little screen make it uesless for me.

So the wait continues.

Also was hoping Fresh-FM in Adelaide would be DAB+ broadcasting but no joy :(

Spero D. writes...

That is a component sized unit that I can put with my Home Theater Gear, that allows an external antenna input, and must have a optical or coxial digital output

Maybe a Tangent Audio Net-200 FM/DAB+/Internet Radio/Mediaplayer will do the job.

Check out this post – http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=34418&st=120

its the last post on that page.

And yes, I'm waiting for Fresh-FM to go digital as well!

Actually, ARN (owners of Cruise and Mix FM in Adelaide) are now running a third station with no name (other than "ARN") with the same sort of music as Fresh. And it's at 80 kbps too (like their DAB+ versions of Cruise and Mix).

Mmm. Only *some* of it is like fresh. I think they're fooling around with it right now as they're jumping from track to track. Should be interesting to see what comes out in the end. The scrolling text says "more soon".

Netlust writes...

Actually, ARN (owners of Cruise and Mix FM in Adelaide) are now running a third station with no name (other than "ARN") with the same sort of music as Fresh. And it's at 80 kbps too (like their DAB+ versions of Cruise and Mix).

Is the music similar to what their 96.1 The Edge plays? (Hip Hop/R n B)

vortex writes...

foothills? You should be able to get it all over adelaide

5MBS has a licence area named Adelaide Foothills (sure, it does cover most of the metro area).

The TX site is in South Tce rather than Mt Lofty.

compare:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=http:%2F%2Fwww.acma.gov.au%2Flicplan%2Fdefmaps%2Fdocuments%2Fpmrkgm%2Fla_987.kmz

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=http:%2F%2Fwww.acma.gov.au%2Flicplan%2Fdefmaps%2Fdocuments%2Fpmrkgm%2Fla_499.kmz

Lime Leader writes...

Is the music similar to what their 96.1 The Edge plays? (Hip Hop/R n B)

Must've posted simultaneously! :)

I can't really tell. I've never heard The Edge before. I did check The Edge though and the streams aren't the same. There is a significant amount of dance/club music in it though. Time will tell :).

ABC
----

I attempted a direct voice contact to ascertain what the data rates for each of their programs would be (and what programs would be put to broadcast digital radio).

After being directed to “transmission problems area (1300 139 994)" the operator refused to state anything, saying that it was “policy”.
Perhaps it was the operator or maybe it is the policy.

The latest date for the ABC’s DAB start is only 6 weeks away.

Perhaps someone else can try to find out.

In more amusement that desperation I submitted a request for “help” regarding this issue, to the ABC’s “Can We Help?” program. Perhaps they can help, perhaps not.

The basic hope is that ABC classic has a minimum of 128 kbps, and that the AM stations ( “national” and “local” ) have at least 64 kbps each. Perhaps a significant miracle will happen with ABC classic running at 160 kbps or 192 kbps (using 32 kbps multiples, as it seems the convention).

Tallying the bits

-----------------

Basis:
Per broadcast frequency there are a total of 1.152 Mbits/sec available, with the basic licence division being 9 x 128 kbits/sec (128 kbps is the minimum take up, per existing analogue commercial licence).

- Transmission in Perth on 9B (204.640 MHz) & 9C (206.352 MHz)

- 9B is a “category 1" service (commercial and community), consisting of 7 commercial and 2 community virtual channels at a licence “unit” division of 128 kbit/sec each.

- 9C is a “category 3" service (national broadcasters) consisting of virtual channels from the ABC and SBS.

ABC programs (speculating on the data rates)

-----------

Existing analogue programs:

Classic FM 128 kbps
Triple J 64 kbps
DiG Radio 64 kbps
DiG Jazz 64 kbps

Radio National 64 kbps
Radio Local 64 kbps

SBS 1 64 kbps
SBS 2 64 kbps

Tally : 4.5 x 128 kbps : Thus 4.5 x 128 kbps remaining.

New stations will presumably be added, but initially there are 4.5 x 128 kbps still available.

Bumping Triple J, DiG Radio and DiG Jazz up to 128 kbps, consumes another 1.5 x 128 kbps .

Tally : 6 x 128 kbps : Thus 3 x 128 kbps remains.

Based on the above, ABC Classic could easily be transmitted at 160, 192, or even 256 kbps, leaving 256 kbps (2 x 128 kbps) to be tossed over the other virtual channels.

Commercial virtual channels

-------------------------

The tally of the stations below is 6 x 128 kbps. As the “community” stations will (eventually) consume 2 x 128 kbps, this gives a new total of 8 x 128 kbps out of the 9 x 128 kbps that exists.

Thus there is 1 x 128 kbps missing. Either:
- Some of the licence holders haven’t yet begun broadcasting using all of their licenced data rate.
- The figures from the previous whirlpool entry are slightly in error.
- There is another licence holder who hasn’t begun transmitting yet.

From a previous Whirpool entry:

CRN/Grant (128kbps)

------------------6IX (64kbps)

------------------silence (64kbps)

Austereo (256kbps)

------------------Pink (64kbps)

------------------Radar (64kbps)

------------------92.9 (64kbps)

------------------Mix (64kbps)

Fairfax (256kbps)

-----------------96fm (64kbps)

-----------------96fm "HD" (128kbps)

-----------------6PR (64kbps)

ARN/DMG (128kbps)

------------------Nova (64kbps)

------------------Novanation (64kbps)

The above correspond to the available stations given in the various press releases. The stations for Perth being :

Mix 94.5, 92.9, Pink Radio, Radar
Nova 93.7, Novanation.
6ix,
6PR, 96 fm,

Netlust writes...

Seems test broadcasts in Adelaide were turned off as of last night.

Au contraire.

All Adelaide commercial radio stations are now transmitting DAB+ programs. Transmissions commenced on Friday morning, 15 May 2009.

There are currently no community, ABC or SBS channels – I understand that this is directly related to management and funding problems at each of those organisatons.

ABC Classic I would imagine would have no such processing and have a higher bitrate.

Pure speculation. ABC has no DAB presence and may well be absent for months.

.ausWY. writes...

I believe that the standard jack size is 3.5mm

Go and measure a plug with an accurate set of calipers and see if you still believe!

Lime Leader writes...

For classical music in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane & Adelaide (foothills), there's 2MBS, 3MBS, 4MBS, 5MBS.

Also 101.5 Radio Adelaide – in, er, Adelaide. (Australia's first community rsdio licenceee, backed by a very generous and anonymous donor).

Spero D. writes...

I want to get into DAB+ Radio here in Adelaide, however it looks like I may be waiting for the product I want to come along.

You seem to assume that DAB+ will deliver high quality signaly to your top-end gear.

Be assured, it won't.

DAB+ is all about extreme compression – think 64kbps AAC+. Trty it from your PC, feeding your rig, and you will quickly appreciate that it is highly unlikely that top-end equipment suppliers will be promoting this stuff.

Alas, with DAB+ you are condemned to middle-of-the-road equipment that will deliver middle-of-the-road quality that is scarcely distinguishable from a strong FM signal.

DAB+ is all about quantity (many channels jammed into a a tight radio spectrum allocation), not quality.

bitseeker writes...

The latest date for the ABC’s DAB start is only 6 weeks away.

Highly unlikely, according to my sources.

cable99 writes...

Latest switch-on schedule:

Perth – 4 May
Melbourne – 11 May
Adelaide – 18 May Adelaide 15 May
Brisbane – 25 May
Sydney – 30 May

Who knows exactly what the ABC will do but I'm fairly confident (from looking at sats) that the ABC considers 256k L2 audio to be suitable for their stereo FM broadcasts. Hopefully the ABC maintains the quality point for its digital radio broadcasts too.

There is apparent confusion as to the Digital Radio “Start-up Date” and what has happened. The key is the phrase that is used by the commercial broadcasters, being “switch on”, as opposed to that used in the legislation, being “Start-up”.

The ACMA (based on the legislation) had declared that the “Digital Radio start-up date” is to occur no sooner than 30 days after the 30th of April (i.e. 30th May 2009) and no later than the 1st of July 2009 (i.e. 1st June – 1st July inclusive)

All allocated licence holders (national, commercial & “community”) must begin their services in this period.

The dates are fixed and set in federal legislation and by the subsequent declarations from the ACMA.

To obey the law, the ABC must abide by the above dates. Yet if the ABC fails, then there are no enforceable monetary penalties (The Federal Government seizing money from a Federal Government owned entity is absurd). But presumably there would be consequences for the office holders in the ABC who were deemed responsible for the breach of the law.

cable99 writes...

Go and measure a plug with an accurate set of calipers and see if you still believe!

Who cares – the world in general accepts that a standard mini-jack audio plug is known as a 3.5mm plug.
Perhaps it's a misnomer – maybe the socket is 3.5mm?
See if you can get your calipers inside one :)

edit – it was originally known as a 1/8th inch mini-jack which does actually work out to be 3.5mm – are you sure your calipers *are* accurate?

edit2 – sorry – bad maths...

bitseeker writes...

ABC
the operator refused to state anything, saying that it was “policy”."]

No worries, will post here when here there's work underway, switch on date. And would expect a few other WP members would also have their ear ground and likewise post.

Despite it being a commercial site, expect to see a note about it on the home page of digitalradioplus.com.au

bitseeker writes...

There is apparent confusion as to the Digital Radio “Start-up Date” and what has happened. The key is the phrase that is used by the commercial broadcasters, being “switch on”, as opposed to that used in the legislation, being “Start-up”.

The ACMA (based on the legislation) had declared that the “Digital Radio start-up date” is to occur no sooner than 30 days after the 30th of April (i.e. 30th May 2009) and no later than the 1st of July 2009 (i.e. 1st June – 1st July inclusive)

Good, good, another person has had a read of the legislation – the settler of all arguments in these simple matters.

What did you think about the sections about access to any spare spectrum – will stations be eligible to snap up more?

The national broadcasters will be on by July 1, there's no question of it (barring any major weather problems at any site).

ThePMan writes...

Who knows exactly what the ABC will do but I'm fairly confident (from looking at sats) that the ABC considers 256k L2 audio to be suitable for their stereo FM broadcasts. Hopefully the ABC maintains the quality point for its digital radio broadcasts too.

They've got enough between them and SBS to make it sound good. 1152 kbps to be exact – let's hope at least one of their services is at a demonstration level.

Which brings me to another question, what's an acceptable minimum bandwidth for talk based stations such as Newsradio etc?

angryofmayfair writes...

it was originally known as a 1/8th inch mini-jack which does actually work out to be 3.5mm

If we want to be really pedantic, 1/8 inch = 3.175 mm precisely. Even if the hole is nominally 1/8 inch or whatever, in order for the plug to fit inside, the plug has to be a little smaller than the hole. Manufacturing tolerances will have all plugs a little smaller than the nominal size, and all sockets a little larger than the nominal size.

Lastly, if you want to measure something accurately, use a micrometer. Depending on the skill of the operator, and the accuracy of the calipers, you would never want to bet your life on a caliper-measured size.

Lime Leader writes...

Which brings me to another question, what's an acceptable minimum bandwidth for talk based stations such as Newsradio etc?

IMO talk radio could be accommodated by 10kbit.

ThePMan writes...

IMO talk radio could be accommodated by 10kbit.

no thanks. My isp streams several talkback radio stations at 10kbps and they sound terrible. Like they were recorded underwater or in the bathroom.

On the other hand listening to BBC and News radio @ 32kbps would be acceptable to me.

Are they AAC?

You can generate your own test sample easily enough. Grab the latest winamp and enc_aacplus.exe. Its not miraculous sound, but 10kbit mono + SBR is more than adequate for talkback radio and potentially far exceeds that which can be heard through a typical AM radio (which is usually far below the potential of AM transmission in Australia).

At 16kbit / sec with PS and SBR even music is tollerable if one is used to 'AM' quality (certainly not hi-fi though!).

ThePMan writes...

Its not miraculous sound, but 10kbit mono + SBR is more than adequate for talkback radio and potentially far exceeds that which can be heard through a typical AM radio (which is usually far below the potential of AM transmission in Australia).

At 16kbit / sec with PS and SBR even music is tollerable if one is used to 'AM' quality (certainly not hi-fi though!).

That's a quite a stretch! Can you back this up with a link to the appropriate double blind "listening tests"?

The artefacts at this bitrate are extremely annoying – in fact practical use has shown that has shown that aacplus does not do a very good job of encoding the human voice at low (<48kbps) bitrates. A typical Australian AM station would sound far superior to low bitrate aacplus as the audio is clean and encoding artefact free. (even taking into account the limited high frequency response of some AM radios)

Double blind tests for what? 10kbit AAC vs 'AM'? No. You have it within your grasp to encode a sample yourself using the information provided above at which you'll discover that 10 kbit (or if you really want to, push it to 16kbit) for talk back radio is quite achievable. Remember to not used a lossy compressed source as your input to the encoder.

BofH writes...

A typical Australian AM station would sound far superior to low bitrate aacplus as the audio is clean and encoding artefact free. (even taking into account the limited high frequency response of some AM radios)

Please provide a link with double blind tests to support your claim.

angryofmayfair writes...

1/8th inch mini-jack which does actually work out to be 3.5mm

It doesn't.

edit2 – sorry – bad maths...

That's for sure!

See if you can get your calipers inside one :)

I don't need to measure the socket. My (very accurate) calipers will happily measure the diameter of the plug, the topic of this, er, off-topic conversation!

BofH writes...

That's a quite a stretch! Can you back this up with a link to the appropriate double blind "listening tests"?

Here's a 16kbps mp3 music stream using a well known and reliable internet streaming source: http://www.radioparadise.com/musiclinks/rp_16.m3u. And here's a 24kbps AAC+ stream from the same source: http://www.radioparadise.com/musiclinks/rp_24aac.m3u.

OK, the bit rate is not as low as 10kbps but if you close your eyes and imagine it's simply speech, it would be listenable for talk radio, though for music it's pretty poor.

Note that this particular source also streams mp3 at rates as high as 256 kbps – and sounds brilliant. (As do the Sky streams www.sky.fm – a small fee is involved for the high-end streams, unless your ISP furnishes them as part of a walled garde.)

Any ideas when hifi component models of DAB+ radios will be released. All the ones I see at the moment are mostly single speaker models and IPOD docking models which all don't look very asthetically pleasing in design an look like they are all based on DAB models available UK/Europe market.

Will any of the mainstream manufacturers be releasing any models or hifi component models?

Number of virtual stations

--------------------------

I have seen nothing in the legislation to indicate any restriction on the number of virtual stations that a licence holder may put to their data stream. Nor how often he changes the virtual channel identifiers.

Selling the virtual channel Identifier / Call sign

--------------------------------------------------

A remark in a different forum complained about a situation that had occurred in the Netherlands. One licence holder was selling the naming rights to existing virtual channels or new virtual channels, to advertisers (Obviously the channels were contained within his licenced data rate quota).

This seems a natural and clever idea. For instance, there could be a “Ford Motor Company” virtual channel, leased for a few hours, days, weeks, months or more. The content doesn’t even have to change, but the lessee could fill it with their content (promotions, product information and so forth). Further to that, he may cut down the audio data rate, and fill the packets with either pictures or text or both.

“Community”

--------
As to the “Community” stations, a fraction of their data rate (2 x 128 kbps – 256 kbps) could be reserved for very short term leasing (hours, days or weeks). Naturally the virtual channel identifier would change with each new lessee.

Sorry for being a noob, though can someone please explain how digital radio works & how it differs from normal radio..

– Andrew – writes...

can someone please explain how digital radio works & how it differs from normal radio..

A quick www.google.com.au search reveals:

http://www.digitalradioplus.com.au/

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/media_broadcasting/radio/digital_radio/rollout_of_digital_radio_in_australia

– Andrew – writes...

can someone please explain how digital radio works & how it differs from normal radio
Wikipedia has some good info too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting

g12345567 writes...

Will any of the mainstream manufacturers be releasing any models or hifi component models?
According to http://www.worlddab.org/products_manufacturers/receiver_manufacturers there are precious few. The only hope we have is the new EU rules that say all new units must support DAB+, which could work out to our benefit is the majors refresh their lines in the next year or so.

I'd like to see a unit with both a car and home dock. The plethora of radios available now don't appeal at all. I know many people that listen to the radio a lot and it is always car, component hifi or micro set and those are exactly the types of receivers you can't buy!

baswell writes...

I'd like to see a unit with both a car and home dock. The plethora of radios available now don't appeal at all. I know many people that listen to the radio a lot and it is always car, component hifi or micro set and those are exactly the types of receivers you can't buy!

Same here. Was just doing some research on this and noticed Marantz have two hifi component module available and Denon has one.

Unfortunately it looks like they only support DAB. No mention of them supporting DAB+ as yet. But even at those prices they are still very expensive for a simple digital/AM/FM radio tuner.
We'll just have to wait a while for more manufacturers to release there upcoming DAB+ models.

ST7001
Marantz ST7001 Stereo AM/FM Tuner with DAB
AU$897.00

ST15s1
Marantz ST15s1 Audiophile Tuner Dual Band Dab/FM
AU$1,990.00

TU-1800DAB
Denon TU-1800DAB Stereo DAB/AM/FM Tuner
AU$797.00

Anybody bought a unit yet ??
I see quite a range at Harvey Norman (website at least).

Quite desperate to get one for AM radio in the office. Is the digitalradioplus website up to date in terms of which stations have it running ?

I'd buy a unit if they existed for cars. It seems the only one that exists though is the Pure Highway. It seems to just be an add-on connected either by AUX or FM transmitter to the normal radio. (What is the point of that?)

I'm on the Gold Coast anyway so I might not even get a strong enough signal for Brisbane digital stations. I can get them on normal FM though, but it's not worth risking that sort of cash. Definitely not listening to anything down here though, gold coast radio is absolute rubbish (thank heavens for triple j!)

arnee writes...

Anybody bought a unit yet ?

Yes – the cheapest I could find (Bush BR10DAB, $149 at Harvey Norman).

The Bush is OK for my purposes, which are to get a feel for the services on offer and to check out coverage (definitely not as comprehensive as FM radio). I also appreciate getting better quality audio from the stations that also currently operate on the AM band. See my review here: /forum-replies.cfm?t=1031313&r=19219694#r19219694

I intend to get something better and cheaper in, say, a year or so if/when the market matures and hardware prices fall. I too would like to see mainstream brands enter the market but that seem to be a big ask. DAB is niche in Europe and Australian DAB+ is even more niche – only a few other countries are dabbling with it and so it is hard to see the likes of Sony and Panasonic getting into the business unless the market expands.

Quite desperate to get one for AM radio in the office.

Yes, that would be a good reason to get one – provided you have strong FM reception in the office, there will be a reasonable chance of getting DAB+ reception. Note that most DAB+ is being transmitted on TV channel 9A, 204.64 MHz so a better test of whether you can receive it would be to try out a TV set with just a telescopic antenna – if the TV sound works OK, that's a good sign.

Is the digitalradioplus website up to date in terms of which stations have it running ?

No.

Digital radio has gone commercial in Perth, Mebourne and Adelaide while Brisbane and Sydney will be switched on by the end of May.

In Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne you will find that the major commercial AM and FM radio stations are all broadcasting DAB+ simulcasts. In addition, the following 'new' stations are being carried in all three cities:

• Koffee (chillout music) and NovaNation (dance) – c/- DMG Radio
• Radar (unsigned Australian artists) and Pink Radio (dedicated to the artist Pink) – c/- Austereo
• An unnamed ARN channel that is tagged "more to come." It is obviously being run by ARN. ARN generally operates two analogue stations in each city so it is something of a mystery about what it plans to do with its unused DAB+ channel capacity. Its one 'new' DAB+ channel is broadcasting hip-hop filler music with no track info and no announcements. There's no second channel for now. It looks like ARN is not at all enthusiastic about pursuing the DAB+ space.

Nether the ABC nor SBS have a DAB presence as yet due, I understand, to funding and management issues. It could take some time before the national broadcasters are in a position to broadcast DAB+.

Likewise, the community broadcasters have largely been unable to commence DAB+ broadcasts.

dudditz writes...

I'm on the Gold Coast anyway so I might not even get a strong enough signal for Brisbane digital stations. I can get them on normal FM though,

My limited experience, and a study of the propagation maps for DAB+ radio, suggest that you might well be hard-pressed to receive Brisbane DAB+ transmissions on the Gold Coast for commercial reasons.

It seems to me that the transmitters have been set up to be directional, with limited power directed towards markets outside the target market – in order to protect radio stations that are outside the target market.

So in Melbourne, for example, Geelong listeners will probably have difficulty receiving Melbourne DAB+ transmissions (can someone in Geelong confirm this?)

East of Adelaide, residents in Mount Barker and further east will have difficulties because they are considered to reside outside the metro area and are therefore apparently not entitled to receive metro DAB+ signals from Adelaide – despite the fact that they get excellent reception from Adelaide FM transmissions. This is supposedly to protect the market of the local radio stations there, which operate out of Murray Bridge.

Similar restrictions have probably been put in place for outer Perth areas.

Thats what I was thinking. At the moment its just the major radio stations in all the capital cities that are turning on digital radio transmitters at the moment. From what I read digital radio has far less coverage/transmission distance than regular am/fm radio transmissions.

For example, here in Sydney where I live on the northern beaches we can pick up most of the Newcastle, all of the Central Coast and Sydney stations. I am assuming it wont be for the next year or two before the major stations outside the capital cities go digital. Some of the minor community and smaller radio stations may not even go digital just opting to stay on FM with there current equipment, as it may be too costly to switch over or maintain both FM and DAB+ equiment at the same time.

g12345567 writes...

I am assuming it wont be for the next year or two before the major stations outside the capital cities go digital.

I believe that due to DAB+'s relatively short transmission distance, digital radio systems other than DAB+ are being considered for non-capital city areas. Not exactly an ideal situation – in the long run, those who live in the city and travel outside it (as well as the reverse) might need two radios – or a the very least, a radio that can handle both standards.

A big ask, given that the major hardware manufacturers have in essence shunned DAB and DAB+.

cable99 writes...

I believe that due to DAB+'s relatively short transmission distance, digital radio systems other than DAB+ are being considered for non-capital city areas.
It is the same as FM, really. So in smaller towns that do have local stations, you could well have one MUX all the local FM stations use. One nice things about DAB is the ability to have transmitters close together on the same frequency broadcasting the same signal without getting in each other's way to blanket a large area. (think eastern seaboard) However, regulations and current licenses are a whole other issue!

The long term plan is to replace AM with DRM, which would again give about the same coverage as existing AM stations, but at higher quality. It is actually meant to be on-frequency in tandem with the analog signal, much like HD-radio on FM in the US. That should take care of some of the politics of using new spectrum!

cable99 writes...

It seems to me that the transmitters have been set up to be directional, with limited power directed towards markets outside the target market – in order to protect radio stations that are outside the target market.

I'm keen to hear from those with a digital radio who either live on the edge or outside of the capital city licence areas as to what your reception is like.

Places like Geelong, Mt Barker, Mandurah, northernmost suburbs of Perth.

cable99 writes...

Not exactly an ideal situation – in the long run, those who live in the city and travel outside it (as well as the reverse) might need two radios – or a the very least, a radio that can handle both standards.

That's right, DRM and DRM+ (freqs up to 108 MHz) are being considered for regional areas. As stated, they're on the existing AM/FM band, so propagation is better.

Yes, it does put Australia into a unique position of having 4 different radio bands and will be very interesting to see how manufacturers react.

baswell writes...

It is the same as FM, really.

Not really. It operates at a significantly higher frequency, for a start, leading to propagation issues. Compared with FM, it is far less tolerant to marginal reception quality.

Lime Leader writes...

I'm keen to hear from those with a digital radio who either live on the edge or outside of the capital city licence areas as to what your reception is like.

Places like Geelong, Mt Barker, Mandurah, northernmost suburbs of Perth.

I don't live in such an area but I was passing through Mt Barker, east of Adelaide, on the weekend and noted that DAB+ reception there is extremely marginal. To get it working reliably inside a house in the township a user would probably need an external Yagi antenna.

The Harvey Norman shop in Mt Barker does not intend to stock DAB+ radios because HN doesn't want the hassle of dealing with disappointed customers who have reception problems.

ABC Radio stalls new content plans

As flagged by me earlier, it could be many months before we see new content on ABC Radio's digital spectrum.

For the time being, Local Radio, Classic FM, Newsradio, Radio National, Triple J and the three Dig internet streaming channels (Dig, Jazz and Country) will launch later in this coming winter.

However, the ABC failed to get any Federal Budget allocation to fund new radio channels and so its plans for developing additional content are substantially delayed. In particular, its plans to launch dedicated sport, children's and health stations have been disrupted.

See http://is.gd/Bnys for The Australian's report about this.

cable99 writes...

See my review here

Hey cable – thx for the info.
Are you in Victoria by any chance ?

arnee writes...

Are you in Victoria by any chance ?

I'm all over the place. My business operates in all States and I have residences in several states, including Vic.

cable99 writes...

I'm all over the place. My business operates in all States and I have residences in several states, including Vic.

OK – i only ask because my only goal is to get an AM station here – sports radio SEN as the streaming link is really bad in my office.

So i guess if i go and test it at HN that will do the trick as to whether they have the dab+ running yet (website still says coming soon but u never know how up to date that is)

cable99 writes...

I don't live in such an area but I was passing through Mt Barker, east of Adelaide, on the weekend and noted that DAB+ reception there is extremely marginal.
That's really sad, shouldn't be like that. A transmitter on Mt. barker itself and on the same frequency should fix that quite easily. According to this older but very interesting study, single frequency networks work really, really well:

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_261-lau.pdf

After reading that and looking at the BBCs network, I am really surprised they went for the single-site high-ERP setup here when much more DAB-experienced countries all still go for the "many smaller sites" model.

I don't know enough about COFDM, but it sounds to me like a microwave link should be able to shoot the composite signal to the other site, requiring only inexpensive equipment for the secondary site. (much like composite studio-transmitter-links (STL) used by some FM stations)

Is it just me, or are they just setting this DAB thing up to fail?

baswell writes...

That's really sad, shouldn't be like that.

Agreed.

A transmitter on Mt. barker itself and on the same frequency should fix that quite easily.

Also agreed. But this is not the issue.

The issue is that Mount Barker, an outer Adelaide suburb, lies outside the Adelaide radio market. It appears that DAB+ propagation design specifically aims to minimise the Adelaide signal in the Mount Barker area so that radio licensees serving the Mt Barker area are not forced to compete with Adelaide radio stations. This, despite the fact that regular Adelaide FM and AM radio booms into Mt Barker!

DAB+ propagation power from Adelaide's Mt Lofty transmission site has been designed to place a very low-powered signal in the direction of Mt Barker.

I understand that the systematic divvying up of the outer metro markets is going on in Melbourne (where Geelong is being excluded), in Perth (though I haven't seen people from Perth confirm this) and in Brisbane (Gold Coast to be excluded from the Bris programs).

baswell writes...

Is it just me, or are they just setting this DAB thing up to fail?

It certainly looks like its being set up to fail or at least maintain the status quo, ie the majority of listeners will remain on AM and FM and away from DAB+ where potentially new competitors could appear.

baswell writes...

Is it just me, or are they just setting this DAB thing up to fail?

Not a very large sample but a relation who works in the Sales/Advertising section of a Radio network feels that,despite the hype, large sections of the Radio Industry seem less than enthusiastic about the introduction of DAB+, expensive repeat of the UK experiment. Time will tell.

cable99 writes...

I understand that the systematic divvying up of the outer metro markets is going on in Melbourne (where Geelong is being excluded),

Might help to explain why ABC is hell bent on starting up a local radio station in Geelong.

People of Geelong don't want them. We listen to ABC Melbourne now and the frequency the ABC wants to commandeer will put our local community station off the air.

DAB+ now live in Brisbane ! Just picked it up tonight-was not due until Mon next 25th May but amazingly has kicked off ahead of schedule .... albeit several years behind the rest of the developed world. Maybe the floods have accidentally hit the DAB on switch prematurely !

Sounds good on my Pure Evoke Flow.

Here are the stations .....

4 BC
4 BH
4 KQ
97.3
B105
NOVA1069
NOVANATION
PINK RADIO
RADAR RADIO
RADIO TAB
TRIPLE M
IP DIGITAL

I ended up buying a DAB+ Tuner rather than a radio with mono speaker.

http://www.thirstforlife.com.au/epages/thirstforlife.sf?ObjectPath=/Shops/thirstforlife/Products/%22Maximum%20Digital%20Tuner%22

The MR-2000 is covered by a 2 year warranty. See http://www.msml.com.au for warranty conditions.

The MR-2000 can be connected to your sound system via standard RCA connections or a digital coaxial output (44.1 KHz).

Donncha,

Can't get any in Brisbane 5:30pm Friday 22. You still getting them????

pheggie writes...

The MR-2000

The "Maximum" looks good but $519 is a bit rugged for my liking – and I already have mutiple, good quality internet streaming devices so that side of the offer is redundant in my place.

The tech specs that the content providers have opted for mean "middle of the road" (ie no better than) FM radio quality – and in many cases worse. So I can't see the benefit in shelling out for a high-end rig at this stage.

smithkid writes...

Can't get any in Brisbane 5:30pm Friday 22. You still getting them????

Hi smithkid

All still loud & clear here in Norman Park !

What part of city are you in? Not submerged I hope !

Have you aeriel up ?

Re Brisbane DAB+

Donncha writes...

Here are the stations .....

4 BC
4 BH
4 KQ
97.3
B105
NOVA1069
NOVANATION
PINK RADIO
RADAR RADIO
RADIO TAB
TRIPLE M
IP DIGITAL

What, no Koffee? – I guess Brisbane is the one city where DMG only operates one analogue radio station – so it doesn't get given the bandwidth to put up two new digital streams like it has done elsewhere. Novanation is 'it.'

Koffee is a great station and, ironically, programmed out of DMG's Brisbane facility! DMG seems to be the only company that has embraced DAB+. It's offerings all include full sound track information on the digital readout. Others don't bother with this stuff yet.

ARN seems to be particularly unenthusiastic. Its has taken down its digital-only transmissions in Adelaide and there's no sign of ARN digital-only in Melbourne or Perth at this stage. Perhaps it should do a deal with DMG by offering its capacity to get Koffee on air in Brissie.

A couple of unique items on the Brisbane list:

RADIO TAB: Radio TAB in Brisbane has the same owner (UniTAB/Tatts Group Ltd) as Radio TAB in Adelaide – yet there's no DAB+ Radio TAB in Adelaide. Interesting that those rights are apparently not being used in Adelaide. No TAB offerings in Perth or Melbourne either – perhaps management perception is that the horse punters will never by a DAB+ radio?

IP DIGITAL: What is this – and who is backing it? What kind of programming?

Here's the info extracted from a full mux dump of what's going to air in Brisbane at the moment.

DAB+ Brisbane 1 (0x1006) 202.928 MHz

0:973 Feel Good (0x1268) sch=15 start=480 CUs=66 PL=eep-3a bitrate=88
1:4KQ Classic Hits (0x1269) sch=16 start=546 CUs=66 PL=eep-3a bitrate=88
2:Nova1069 (0x1254) sch= 1 start=384 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64
3:NovaNation (0x1255) sch= 2 start=432 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64
4:RadioTab (0x125e) sch= 8 start=288 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64
5:IPDigital (0x125f) sch= 9 start=336 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64

DAB+ Brisbane 2 (0x1007) 204.640 MHz

0:Pink Radio (0x1242) sch= 3 start=384 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64
1:Radar Radio (0x1243) sch= 4 start=432 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64
2:4BC News Talk (0x127c) sch=15 start=480 CUs=72 PL=eep-3a bitrate=96
3:4BH – Best Songs(0x127d) sch=16 start=552 CUs=72 PL=eep-3a bitrate=96
4:B105 (0x1240) sch= 1 start=288 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64
5:Triple M (0x1241) sch= 2 start=336 CUs=48 PL=eep-3a bitrate=64

Enjoy!

Donncha

Tried again (Sat am). Locked in 12 stations but very poor signal. Stations fade out when only one signal dot on screen and start again when 2 dots signal strength. Never more than 2 dots. Situated in Clayfield near Clayfield College!

Smithkid

smithkid writes...

Tried again (Sat am). Locked in 12 stations but very poor signal. Stations fade out when only one signal dot on screen and start again when 2 dots signal strength. Never more than 2 dots. Situated in Clayfield near Clayfield College!

Don't despair just yet !

My signal a bit iffy this morning too.

Apparently they are still testing the system over the next few weeks and there is some tweaking to be done. It is not at full power all of the time. Monday is meant to be official launch date so may improve by then.

BofH writes...

Here's the info extracted from a full mux dump of what's going to air in Brisbane at the moment.

Are you able to see what they are burning the non-audio bits on? It seems to be at least 16kbit/sec but up to 24kbit/sec.

Shifted the radio to other side of the room. Full signal strength. Maybe computer electronics was interfering (I have 6 screens). I read on the pure site you can remove the aerial (F socket) and connect a coaxial cable. Will wait till Monday and if signal still weak, try coax to TV socket ???

ThePMan writes...

Are you able to see what they are burning the non-audio bits on? It seems to be at least 16kbit/sec but up to 24kbit/sec.

Not yet, however once I am able to post the raw files I'm sure it can be analysed!

What I have found interesting is that as multiplexes are measured in Capacity Units or "CU's", we can see the total amount of unallocated CU's on each multiplex. Every multiplex has 864 CU's available with each commercial licence apparently allocated 96 CU's to utilise (128kbit/sec bandwidth)

In Brisbane we have 4 commercial licences per multiplex, each receiving use of up to 96 CU's, which comes to a total of 384 CU's

Also according to legislation 1/9th of each multiplex is reserved for community broadcasting (96 CU's)

So after taking off the community broadcasting entitlement, each multiplex currently has: 864-384-96 = 384 CU's of unallocated capacity!

The big question is what is happening with all this spare capacity and can it legally be used by the commercial stations or does it have to be "mothballed" until 2015 when the ban on new digital radio licenses is lifted! What a mess!

DAB seems very useful for TAB.
LCD Screen
Gives Results of Last Race
Time till next Race
Favourite & Price for Next Race

.ausWY. writes...

DAB+ and DVB-t (the digital terrestrial TV broadcast standard we use) are not cross-compatible. Even if they were, current DVB-t STBs would not be able to decode an AAC+ stream.

I have a TV /FM tuner card in my computer. Is there anyway that, e.g. install a codec, driver, to use to listen to DAB? Why so difficut?

(I am totally new to DAB, so please forgive my ignorance).

Regards.

No. You need a card that is capable of DAB+ reception. An analogue AM/FM card will not be able to tune the relevant frequencies and even if it could it has no way to recover the DAB+ signal. Likewise a digital television (DVB-t) card will not work (unless it has specific allowance for DAB+ reception).

DAB+ is a comparatively new entry on the stage and there are very few PC based devices that receive it.

smithkid writes...

Shifted the radio to other side of the room. Full signal strength.

Glad to hear you got the Feng Shui sorted out !

DAB+ does seem very aeriel sensitive.

Your using an Avanti Flow if I remember .... not sure about connecting a coaxial.

There has been some discussion about DAB & different aeriels on the following message boards in UK if you care to trawl through them (search function doesn't work very well).
See http://flowusers.com/

Donncha writes...

DAB+ does seem very aeriel sensitive.

What hope have we got in a car?

BofH writes...

The big question is what is happening with all this spare capacity and can it legally be used by the commercial stations or does it have to be "mothballed" until 2015 when the ban on new digital radio licenses is lifted!

Assuming that Internet Radio doesn't come along and kill DAB+ first ...

Far, far better than “CD Quality”

---------------------------------

As there may be “Decision Makers” from the ABC reading some of these fora (or perhaps associates of the decision makers, or possibly those who serve tea and biscuits to the decision makers ..), there may still be a chance to influence the sound quality strategy of the ABC’s Digital Audio Broadcast virtual channels.
(It would help the visibility of this topic to be moved to its own topic as opposed to a thread in the “Gadgets” area.)

Masters

-------

The music CD’s (introduced almost 30 years ago – 1980) have a bit depth of 16 bits and sampling rate of 44.1 kHz.

The music on the CD is a representation of the “Master” recording which has a bit depth of at least 20 or 24 bits and a sampling rate of far greater than 44.1 kHz (The contemporary rates seem to be 88.2 or 96 kHz ).

Thus, the idea that DAB+ should be restricted to merely playing the music contained on CD’s is now absurd. There is an opportunity to broadcast music of a far higher quality.

It should be within the capacity of the ABC to allow one of their virtual channels to have at least 256 – 384 kbps (for occasional periods) AND source the highest of quality master or near-master recordings (bit depth of 20, sampling of 88.2 kHz).

Yet:
- There seems only a fraction of people with any capacity to distinguish music that has content above 15 kHz from two differing bit depths and sample rates (or was it simply to hear above 15 kHz reliably..). The nominal human hearing range is usually given as 20 Hz – 20 kHz)
- The above doesn’t necessarily imply that the quality below 15 kHz will be the same for the different bit depths and sampling rates. The higher sampling rates and bit depths, must, by definition introduce less distortion.

Raise the experience

--------------------

The ABC should aim at raising the listening experience of those who are knowledgeable about it, and more so, introducing the general populace to such experiences. This being opposed to falling in with the mediocre mob and pumping out barely sufficient sounds.

Considering the types of material that the ABC could transmit from Master recordings (or near-Masters), it probably would be restricted to what they record themselves (live concerts and so forth).

As to the music they play now, it seems that it is all CD disk sourced.

This then brings up the monster issue that lurks in the dark : Copyright....

cable99 writes...

The Harvey Norman shop in Mt Barker does not intend to stock DAB+ radios because HN doesn't want the hassle of dealing with disappointed customers who have reception problems.

Sounds like a sensible franchisee, perhaps 5MU will give them a discount next time they advertise ;-)

On the Gold Coast, the one and only HN at Bundall is stocking digital radios.

cable99 writes...

I understand that the systematic divvying up of the outer metro markets is going on in Melbourne (where Geelong is being excluded), in Perth (though I haven't seen people from Perth confirm this) and in Brisbane (Gold Coast to be excluded from the Bris programs).

Perth is the only market not be VRP limited ie. different 'power' for different points of the same bearing.

Supposedly it booms into Mandurah, least that's what the local commercial station feared of when replying to ACMA's final plan.

Towards the Gold Coast, it is not VRP limited or in any other way. A theoretical 50 kW towards the GC, but the actual antenna spec will be 3 dB down, so about 25 kW.

For some stupid reason (to appear to appease the regional & remote Qld licence owner), the signal was VRP limited to Eagle Heights, Mt Tamborine – that plateau of small population is 550 metres plus above sea level. No amount of limiting would fix that!

cable99 writes...

What, no Koffee? – I guess Brisbane is the one city where DMG only operates one analogue radio station – so it doesn't get given the bandwidth to put up two new digital streams like it has done elsewhere. Novanation is 'it.'

If they must have 16 kbps for data for each stream, divvying up the rest between 3 in whatever combo wouldn't leave a good figure to have a chance of sounding good.

Koffee is a great station and, ironically, programmed out of DMG's Brisbane facility!

True, Nozz obviously wanted some sunshine ;-)

RADIO TAB: Radio TAB in Brisbane has the same owner (UniTAB/Tatts Group Ltd) as Radio TAB in Adelaide – yet there's no DAB+ Radio TAB in Adelaide. Interesting that those rights are apparently not being used in Adelaide. No TAB offerings in Perth or Melbourne either – perhaps management perception is that the horse punters will never by a DAB+ radio?

In Adelaide, Radio TAB is on a HPON (narrowcast licence). What happened, races used be on 5AA, when the HPONs became available, racing was hived off to there (10 kW, twice the ERP of Adel commercials). The manager of 5AA, Danny Stefferi ran the racing on the AM 1539 freq as well as other sport, when Unitab/Qld TAB bought SA TAB, new broadcast contract and Radio TAB from Bris was broadcasted in its entirety. Danny later was a big wig behind SEN mk. 1 which saw its disastrous introduction to Adel.

So that's how you get Radio TAB in both cap cities (and Darwin too), but they broadcast on different licences. HPONs were not allocated on digital, even though the Adel AM 1539 has the same licence area.

Quite the opposite that horse punters are thought not to buy a DAB+ radio, Sports 927 in Melbourne is right behind its introduction having been involved in the BA tests in Melb and leading the racing stations in developing what to do for digital.

Racing in Bris is on a commercial licence as the TAB bought the old 4IP commercial licence.

IP DIGITAL: What is this – and who is backing it? What kind of programming?

Is perhaps the rest of the allocation for 4TAB, will check on Monday.

smithkid writes...

Will wait till Monday and if signal still weak, try coax to TV socket ???

See what you get, make sure it's the correct impedance (75 or 300 ohms).

DAB+ broadcasts in vertical polarisation, all TV in Bris is horizontal. You'd need to turn your aerial on its side.

And no, AlanH has not taken me over!!!!!

Daly Waters writes...

What hope have we got in a car?

Exactly why NOT to buy a Pure Highway with the way they suggest to mount their stick on aerial, at least get the accessory of the external antenna if you want to listen to DAB+ on FM.

BofH writes...

Also according to legislation 1/9th of each multiplex is reserved for community broadcasting (96 CU's)

Actually, the number of multiplexes were calculated in multiples of 7 commercial stations, we have 8 in Brisbane.

Check the legislation, am almost 100% certain that 2/9 per multiplex (256 kbps) is allocated to community on the category multiplex that has been licenced across all cap cities.

That gives the 7 Bris wide community stations 512 kbps to play with, 73 kbps or 64 kbps per station with 64 kbps left over.

The big question is what is happening with all this spare capacity and can it legally be used by the commercial stations or does it have to be "mothballed" until 2015 when the ban on new digital radio licenses is lifted! What a mess!

There is legislation for that too, it can be auctioned off among the existing or simply given if there is no competing demand.

I'll add the links tomorrow.

bitseeker – you raise some very valid points, sadly I doubt the ABC will treat it in its pure sense. We can hope however!

Lime Leader writes...

Check the legislation, am almost 100% certain that 2/9 per multiplex (256 kbps) is allocated to community on the category multiplex that has been licenced across all cap cities.

Yes whoops it is 2/9ths – my bad! Thanks for picking that up!

http://www.cbaa.org.au/content.php/583.html

This drops the excess capacity to 288 CU's per multiplex after Community Radio is accommodated.

Due to the odd number of community stations, it will mean one Mux will carry 4 community stations and the other will carry 3, so the bitrates will be slightly lower for one group of stations. The only way this could be avoided would be if the Mux operators could be convinced to locate the community stations all on the same Mux. (still in total only occupying 2/9th's of the total capacity of both Muxes – seems unlikely to happen though!)

The funding for Community Radio is now confirmed so we should see some services on the air around Mid 2010.

http://www.cbaa.org.au/content.php/236.html?newsid=1539

ThePMan writes...

No. You need a card that is capable of DAB+ reception.

Have a look at the Albrecht USB model – the pink stick near the bottom of this page: http://www.worlddab.org/products_manufacturers/technology/dab_plus?start=10

Says it is upgradeable to DAB+ and headline says it is also an Internet radio.

Other offerings:
http://www.dandebiz.com/products/dab-t-dmb-usb-receiver

http://detail.en.china.cn/provide/detail,1072911140.html

Chris Burns writes...

Have a look at the Albrecht USB model

So right, you need a card (device) that is capable of DAB+ reception..... :S

ThePMan writes...

So right, you need a card (device) that is capable of DAB+ reception..... :S

Looking at the thread for digital radio on Mediaspy, a member, Moe of Geelong has bought this red USB device via eBay from a UK seller from memory and is receiving the Mt Dandenong signal.

Unsure about his setup with card/device capable of DAB+, but worth asking.

Donncha writes...

DAB+ now live in Brisbane !
["IP DIGITAL

Have you now noticed the test tone went to silence (carrier still on) Sunday arv and has commenced this morning as TAB+

There was some racing talk on it this morning different to the 4TAB normal program, I didn't listen long.

Currently, it's playing music, I've heard 3 tracks with no IDs. Easy listening style, 'Nobody does it better' with female vocalist at present.

Very observant of you. Perhaps the middle of the road music on TAB+ is to relax you after you realise you have lost all your money on the horses !

Interesting to quickly switch from DAB+ to FM with same station on same radio without adjusting volume etc. I can do this on my pure evoke flow and yes there is no doubt that the DAB+ is a richer auditory experience !

why is it that river949 isn't on digital|? yeah they are in ipswich, but looks like sydney outter city stations may be on digital

inside info writes...

why is it that river949 isn't on digital|? yeah they are in ipswich, but looks like sydney outter city stations may be on digital

They aren't a Brisbane licensed station, rather they are in their own Ipswich license area, hence they weren't included in the Digital Radio rollout. Regional stations will come later when Analogue TV is eventually switched off.

I must say, the current DAB+ hardware selection leaves me rather cold.

DAB+ is supposed to deliver great quality sounds, yet we are being left with a limited selection of SINGLE speaker radios and clock radios with terrible speakers!

The people most likely to take up DAB+ would be audiophiles. Surely logic would suggest we urgently need a good (yet affordable) hi-fi DAB+ component. I just want to connect DAB+ into my existing audio system. I don't want a DAB+ device with an internet radio player (got one) or iPhone dock or alarm clock or any of the other stuff. I simply want a DAB+ component to add to my system which provides all the DAB+ bells and wistles.

Is that so hard?

You are so right about the complexity on having so much stuff. I live in Hobart and we are not even on the DAB+ radar. But, I do have a DAB+ mirco system. It is Denon DM37 an I plug my Roku soundbridge into. I bought the DM37 before last Xmas and the price rise. I am not holding my breath for DAB+ to make it across the pond.

lperth writes...

I don't want a DAB+ device with an internet radio player (got one) or iPhone dock or alarm clock or any of the other stuff. I simply want a DAB+ component to add to my system which provides all the DAB+ bells and wistles.

I've hooked up the headphone output of my Sangean DPR99 to my system. Seems to work well enough. I don't know whether the sound quality of DAB+ is enough to justify obtaining a component device, so the current arrangement should be sufficient. Plus I get to disconnect the radio and take it to work to help drown out the chatter outside my office :).

so not happy that no where outside the capitals will have dab+ until after the switch off of analogue tv (which will inevitably be delayed again)

bought the sangean 99 model, did the same thing, had it connected to an old early 80's JVC Amplifier via 3.5mm to RCA leads.

4BH is the best sounding 'station' on the DAB stream set in Brisbane. they run 96kbit compared to 4kq's 88kbit and the others at 64kbit.

while the audio lacks mid punch, this does make listening for extended periods easier. And compared to the analogue broadcast, Less audio compression, sounds like the audio is only being soft limited.

A Question, What is the dynamic range of Dab+. or more to the point whats the sample rate and bit depth.
IF its 44.1k@16bit then you have 96dB aka a CD.

you can tell with the 64k streams, that the SBR (treble guessing) kicks in ½ second or so after the audio commences,

The output from the headphone socket is well suited to hifi connections,. the amp is very low noise, and the volume control smooth to adjust. Even at high levels, the input to the JVC doesn't clip.

Really could use an external antenna connection tho.
Did notice signal strength increase Monday.

funny thing, went in to good guys, they had 3 radios, a clock radio, a bush and another one with ipod dock? anyway, set them all to 4bh, and they all played back at thew exact same time, no noticable difference in the audio. So, i think they are either running the same decoder chips or dab+ decoding is very quick.

Unlike digital tv's where the entire wall of panels a few seconds separate the fastest one from the slowest.

Does anyone know if the eyetv diversity can pick up DAB?

BofH writes...

They aren't a Brisbane licensed station, rather they are in their own Ipswich license area, hence they weren't included in the Digital Radio rollout. Regional stations will come later when Analogue TV is eventually switched off.

That's right and to inside info, no outer Sydney stations are included. All commercial radio licences with a licence area that includes the GPO of their respective cap city is included as well as 2WS since it took an FM conversion ie. occupying one of the Sydney FM conversion licences.

If you read Monday's Queensland Times, you would've read a very well written article about digital radio. Mike Byrne (River 949 PD) was quoted as saying they could go to air on digital if they applied for an experimental licence. While that theoretically is true, where that would be allocated would be interesting considering VHF 6 (ie. 174 MHz), 7, 8, 9, 9A, 10, 11, 12 are all in use which only leaves Defence spectrum at 230 – 240 MHz.

Assailant writes...

so not happy that no where outside the capitals will have dab+ until after the switch off of analogue tv (which will inevitably be delayed again)

The best advice I can offer is to write to an ALP and Coalition federal member and suggest the overdue move of Defence off 230 – 240 MHz happen.

Include that equality of service for all is important as reflected in govt policy for TV (aggregation) and internet (NBN scheme).

Defence were supposed to vacate 230 – 240 MHz long ago but given no funding to upgrade systems to move off.

inside info writes...

4BH is the best sounding 'station' on the DAB stream set in Brisbane. they run 96kbit compared to 4kq's 88kbit and the others at 64kbit.

That's the full data stream, the audio will be less.

A Question, What is the dynamic range of Dab+. or more to the point whats the sample rate and bit depth.
IF its 44.1k@16bit then you have 96dB aka a CD.

Call up one of the stations and ask to be put through to an engineer and ask.

Really could use an external antenna connection tho.
Did notice signal strength increase Monday.

That's because they're testing, there are technical start up procedures to follow. The public notice in the Courier-Mail will tell when this is happening. CRA have said to expect testing for 10-14 days after official switch on date.

I drove through Ipswich on the weekend and found coverage to be fine, even out at Ripley Valley.

funny thing, went in to good guys, they had 3 radios, a clock radio, a bush and another one with ipod dock? anyway, set them all to 4bh, and they all played back at thew exact same time, no noticable difference in the audio.

Last year I spoke to the staffer in charge at Alba Australia (Bush, Grundig), was told that there was only 'two tuning solutions' across their whole product range and not much difference even then.

Strommer writes...

You are so right about the complexity on having so much stuff. I live in Hobart and we are not even on the DAB+ radar. But, I do have a DAB+ mirco system. It is Denon DM37 an I plug my Roku soundbridge into. I bought the DM37 before last Xmas and the price rise. I am not holding my breath for DAB+ to make it across the pond.

Hobart was included in the initial planning, on VHF 12 instead of 9A however the local licencees didn't show much interest in participating.

7HO owner, Grant Broadcasters already have their 6IX on digital in Perth so guess it was enough for them.

As for the metro DAB+ being heard in regional areas, I think it's another planning disaster and DRM will have to be adopted for better propagation/coverage (in band, AM or FM).

Microsoft's new Zune comes with HD radio. Perhaps the Zune could be adapted for other markets with DAB and DAB+.

http://www.zune.net/en-us/mp3players/zunehd/default.htm

Just my 2 cents – Dick Smith got their batch of Bush DAB+ units which i promptly picked up for $140.

Does the job beautifully, which is to get an AM station crisp and clear in an office environment with plenty of machinary/PCs etc.

Awesome stuff !

So people outside of Sydney will not get DAB+ ?
I checked my postcode, what a scam!!

The Grunding Box (with iPod dock) works a treat in my offices in Sydney

Lime Leader writes...

As for the metro DAB+ being heard in regional areas, I think it's another planning disaster and DRM will have to be adopted for better propagation/coverage (in band, AM or FM).

It will probably be DRM+ (as they are trialling now) as compared to DRM and the until analogue tv switches off in 2013, then they will have more spectrum to provide digital radio in regional areas.

Anyone want to take a stab at updating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_in_Australia with DAB stations for their markets?

Enjoyed this article in yesterday's Age re shopping for a digital radio in Perth.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/digital-life/home-entertainment/articles/waiting-for-a-finetune/2009/05/26/1243103546117.html

nessjez writes...

Enjoyed this article in yesterday's Age re shopping for a digital radio in Perth.

Not to be out done by WA here is the equivalent article from Queensland's Literary Giant that is the Courier Mail from a couple of weeks back

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25466481-8362,00.html

happyfly writes...

It will probably be DRM+ (as they are trialling now) as compared to DRM and the until analogue tv switches off in 2013, then they will have more spectrum to provide digital radio in regional areas.

Is DRM+ supported by DAB+ receivers?

Not any that have the CRA DAB+ branding on it as yet. It hasn't been confirmed as a b'cast standard yet.

The ABC have released their “Start-up” date

------------------------------------------

July 1st 2009

ABC & SBS virtual channels

-------------------------

*Assuming only 2 SBS virtual channels
*speculating on the data rates

Classic FM--------------128 kbps (The "FM" is now redundant)
Triple J-----------------128 kbps
DiG Music---------------128 kbps
Jazz--------------------128 kbps
Country-----------------128 kbps

Radio National-----------64 kbps
Radio Local--------------64 kbps
Radio News--------------64 kbps

SBS 1-------------------64 kbps
SBS 2-------------------64 kbps

Tally : 7.5 x 128 kbps : Thus 1.5 x 128 kbps remaining.

New stations will presumably be added, but initially there are 1.5 x 128 kbps still available.

Based on the above, ABC Classic could easily be transmitted at 160, 192, or even 256 kbps ( for short periods if necessary ).

Grover98 writes...

Is DRM+ supported by DAB+ receivers?

DRM+ is being experiment for Shortwave radios and is designed to use portions of older AM transmitter facilites, like antennas, so it will save money on new investments, and to listen to it you will need to purchase a radio capable of receiving DRM+

The ABC have released their “Start-up” date

Is the date the same in all States?

smithkid writes...

The ABC have released their “Start-up” date

Is the date the same in all States?

It is the same date in all captial cities with the exception of Hobart ( I don't know why).

From their web site: "Initially, Digital Radio will be available in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth with plans underway for the future extension of services to other capital cities and regional areas."

By legislation (as I had read it ) the 1st of July 2009 was the last date they could have their "start up" without being in breach of the law. Yet Hobart seems to have been left out. My reading must have been wrong in this regard ( possibly the word "mainland" was used and ignored, or possibly Tasmania is no longer part of Australia.)

happyfly writes...

DRM+ is being experiment for Shortwave radios and is designed to use portions of older AM transmitter facilites, like antennas, so it will save money on new investments, and to listen to it you will need to purchase a radio capable of receiving DRM+

Is DAB+ and DRM+ available on the same receivers? In an earlier post, someone said that they're looking at DRM+ for regional areas. If they don't support both and you travel to regional areas as well as Brisbane, you'd need two receivers, which would be quite messy.

Grover98 writes...

Is DAB+ and DRM+ available on the same receivers? In an earlier post, someone said that they're looking at DRM+ for regional areas.

No current AAC+ 174-240 MHz digital receivers have DRM+ as well.

You're right, it would be quite a problem, but when it is confirmed, am sure they'll be made.

ABC movement of programs

--------------------

The following is based on information from the presenter of ABC’s Classic FM “Jazz track” ( 5-7pm on the weekend).

Within the ABC digital virtual channels, the current Jazz programs will be removed from the “ABC Classic FM” channel, to the “Jazz” channel. But they won’t be removed from the analogue “ABC Classic FM” channel.

Thus the first sign that there will be program differences between the ABC digital and analogue channels, even though they bear the same channel name.

Perhaps there are other programs that may be moved, but I see no obvious contenders.

bitseeker writes...

By legislation (as I had read it ) the 1st of July 2009 was the last date they could have their "start up" without being in breach of the law.

The legislation applies to commercial radio.

The ABC is owned by the government. There's a legal principle that, in essence, means that the government would never sue the ABC. This would be tantamount to the government suing itself – the courts would throw out the case. So even if the legislation requires the ABC to start DAB+ by 1 July, there is no 'stick' to make sure that it does. (ie the would not be penalised if it failed to meet the deadline.)

However, the ABC in general attempts to comply with the general standards that the government requires of commercial operators.

bitseeker writes...

The ABC have released their “Start-up” date

Do you have a reference URL for the info you have kindly posted here? I can only find this http://www.abc.net.au/radio/digital, which does not include the level of detail that is in your post.

I did find this somewhat dated posting on Crikey from John Crawford, manager of Classic FM, http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/12/16/is-abcs-sue-howard-on-the-way-out/, which supports the notion that Jazztrack on the virtual digital system will be carried on "new service ABC Jazz" (not digJazz) and not on Classic Digital (which beggars the question: what programming will pop up on Classic's virtual digital channel while Classic FM is running Jazztrack?)

bitseeker writes...

Perhaps there are other programs that may be moved, but I see no obvious contenders.

How about running Saturday Night Country on the upcoming digCountry virtual channel? ABC Local Radio could continue to run SNC on AM but when there's a sport fixture (eg Ashes cricket), AM Local Radio and the Local Radio digital virtual channel could run the sport (as happens now on AM). Instead of being bumped completely as happens now, SNC would remain available to those who regularly seek out Mr Nutting via digCountry.

The catch, I suppose, is that many members of the SNC target audience probably live outside the transmission footprint oi the Capital-city-only DAB+ channels. However, they could still gain access via digCountry's internet stream.

In another twist, Late Night with Tony Delroy could be carried on the Local Radio virtual channel when sport displaces Mr Delroy on the AM signal. (This has already been trialled by the ABC: On occasion, Delroy and other regular Local Radio evening programs have continued streaming on the internet in recent months while the AM stations have aired evening sport – eg AFL and cricket from South Africa.)

cable99 writes...

Do you have a reference URL for the info you have kindly posted here? I can only find this http://www.abc.net.au/radio/digital, which does not include the level of detail that is in your post.

No, beyond the reference to the ABC page that you have given.

Being part of the “mug” general public, I am on the bottom end of the information chain. I don’t know anyone who is the “know”, nor am I in any privileged minority or other group that has access to the information that is required.

I am compelled to piece the information together from my general reading and enquiry.

Assertions as to the number, type and data bit rates, of the ABC virtual channels are based on :
- DAB implementation in Britain ( 1.152 Mbits/sec data “payload”)
- Australian legislation that nominally divided the data spectrum into minimum pieces of 128 kbit/sec, and confirmed the 1.152 Mbit/sec data payload.
- ABC’s existing analogue stations, and their announcements as to the stations to be put to the digital broadcast stream.
- SBS currently only have 2 analogue radio stations. They have made no announcements as to creating any more.

As to the minimum 128 kbits/sec data bit rate for ABC Classic and the others, this is more hope than reason. Even though their live web streaming is at 128 kbits/sec (MP3), there may be a belief (false) that a lesser data rate would suffice due to the AAC+ coding.

cable99 writes...

The legislation applies to commercial radio.

The ABC is owned by the government. There's a legal principle that, in essence, means that the government would never sue the ABC. This would be tantamount to the government suing itself

Yes, but it didn’t ultimately come to that.

In 2008 an amendment to the relevant legislation was passed, removing Hobart from the initial rollout. I missed this, as I was only looking for anything concerning Perth.

As to their current “Start-date”, that’s now up to someone from that “regional centre” Hobart to find out.

Is there any very small walkmans for digital radio?

Adrian writes...

here any very small walkmans for digital radio?

In a word, No.

The equipment range is very limited and quite disappointing. Australia is one of a tiny number of markets that are running DAB+ transmissions at this stage.

I wouldn't shell out more than the minimum on receiving equipment at this stage. The cheapest seems to be around $150 for a simple Bush.

It's not difficult to shell out close to $1,000 on DAB+ gear but in my view, paying $1K is just plain stoopid, especially when you consider the bit rates that most of the networks are delivering. This is NOT hifi!

Another disappointment at this early stage is that there's just one car radio on the market – and it's low end at that.

My prediction: DAB+ will go the same way as AM Stereo unless the mainstream car manufacturers can be convinced to install DAB+ as standard equipment in mainstream new vehicles.

I spoke to Canohm the agent for Sangean Radios and was told that a pocket size one is being released later in year,i'm not sure exactly

cable99 writes...

My prediction: DAB+ will go the same way as AM Stereo unless the mainstream car manufacturers can be convinced to install DAB+ as standard equipment in mainstream new vehicles.

It will have a very slow uptake that will probaly be swamped by new technologies in the Years to comes. Like print media Commercial Radio is in decline with deminishing listeners and advertising revenues,its hard to see DAB+ reversing that trend.

Adrian writes...

Is there any very small walkmans for digital radio?

Try one of those Pure Highways, good reports about signal with only the headphone cable, however battery life when not on charge would be a problem.

I managed to get the RRP $239 Sangean DPR-69+ down to $180 ie. 25% off by shopping around.

Dewarerian writes...

It will have a very slow uptake that will probaly be swamped by new technologies in the Years to comes. Like print media Commercial Radio is in decline with deminishing listeners and advertising revenues,its hard to see DAB+ reversing that trend.

And of course, CRA spin doctors in press releases spin otherwise. Have a look at the post survey 8 any recent year, all qualifed gains of course.

cable99 writes...

How about running Saturday Night Country on the upcoming digCountry virtual channel?

Yes, and done so easily.

One critical aspect of DAB+ is now the necessity of a decent DAB+ EPG (Digital Audio Broadcast Electronic Programming Guide).

When the initial wave of junk DAB+ receivers passes and those with substantial functionality are offered, they should hopefully have :
- User programming (User listening schedule?) : The user generates programs that consist of switching to various virtual channels, at various times for various durations, without the user intervening.
- A display of all of the virtual channels’ offerings at a particular time without having to scroll through each channel (were that even possible).
- Advertisement/presenter bypassing – say 30 second hops. This will require more that just a few minutes of buffered memory (the so called “rewind” function).

The wait for the decision of manufacturers in Europe to get an Engineer to write firmware to enable AAC+ for DAB+ is, and was, ludicrous. Yet, that seems to be the continuing status.

bitseeker writes...

Yes, and done so easily.

As would have been DAB satellite coverage of Australia.

Regional multiplexes and time displaced broadcasts are not that difficult to arrange once you get a decent slice of spectrum to use.

Can anyone explain to me why satellite was not the chosen delivery vehicle.

Australia at it's finest – A few years late, an updated standard but no significant hardware and a whole bunch of expensive terrestrial transmitters that require maintenance cluttering up the spectrum for an indeterminate period.

Calculated mediocrity seems to be our speciality!

Therefore I am writes...

Can anyone explain to me why satellite was not the chosen delivery vehicle.

Transponder space is not cheap. Rollout of DAB+ (and eventually DRM+) utilises existing broadcasting towers.

Daly Waters writes...

I gather that the sensitivity of digital broadcasts is going to make the car radio difficult. Surely the sets will have to have stronger receivers and therefore cost more?

DAB has been invented to be used in cars. There is a lot of issues with FM reception in moving cars. Having portable DAB devices is just a side effect.

Therefore I am writes...

Can anyone explain to me why satellite was not the chosen delivery vehicle.
XM and Sirius in the US have big reception problems. The only way it works in urban environments is by having ground repeaters. It doesn't work well indoors at all. Listening to to it under the tin roof of you shed would be problematic.

Their satellites only support about 150 stations each, which is not nearly enough to have all the local stations we'd need here.

Another issue is the separate radio markets; stations paid millions to be one of the few to be heard in a city. Moving everyone to the same satellites and being able to hear them everywhere wouldn't go down well with broadcasters. (remember FM licenses initially going only to new players, not existing AM? It was a bloodbath!)

Of course, the spectrum belongs to everyone and should be used for what is best for audiences, not what's best for broadcasters. The current licensing system is ridiculous.

The best thing would be for the government to stop faffing about, shut down analog TV and give proper bandwidth to DAB, with single frequency networks that work much better than the current single large transmitter strategy.

Oh, and a law that manufacturers who put a radio into new cars must make it a DAB+ one. (surely, they can find the extra 50 bucks when building a $20K car?)

Calculated mediocrity seems to be our speciality!
Don't worry, we are nothing special, same in every country. The grass is always greener on the other side...

Therefore I am writes...

Can anyone explain to me why satellite was not the chosen delivery vehicle.

Because it is impossible to deliver radio reception to the moving car this way. Guys, 95% of ads market is made on top of all drivers sitting in their cars.

baswell writes...

the spectrum belongs to everyone

Actually, it belongs to the government – and in particular, the bureacracy. In this case, that means Treasury, which pulls the strings behind the scenes here. Its job is to optimise government revenue.

The result: In order to come up with the dosh in order to successfully play the govt-run competitive spectrum bidding process, radio players must have a business plan that convinces investors/banks that there will be a commercial investment return after the licence acquisition cost has been paid.

That means lowest common denominator programming in a highly regulated radio market. Compare our FTA radio market with the diversity available on streaming internet channels. Sad really. We (consumers) get dealt a pretty stenchy old prawn by a system that optimises government revenue, leaving nothing on the table to support a large range of diverse programming.

Those of you who have been to the US will know that there is a huge range of great FM radio stations there, even in quite small markets. The FM band is far more crammed with stations than it is in Aus. They pay much smaller licence costs, hence don't struggle to repay their investors/banks. This means much shorter and less frequent advertising breaks while delivering far wider program diversity. Regulation is very light-handed compared with Aus.

In the US it seems the people, rather than government, owns the FM radio spectrum.

darecki writes...

Because it is impossible to deliver radio reception to the moving car this way.

Impossible?

More information please. I was unaware of such a fundamental limitation.

cable99 writes...

This means much shorter and less frequent advertising breaks
Dude, you obviously haven't listened to the popular stations in major markets! Most stations in New York are unlistenable due to ads. What makes it even more annoying is that most still sell only 1-minute ads, making annoying ads even more annoying. And tonnes of 200-song, 1 hour rotation CHR, Urban and Hot AC stations.

However, get out of the cities and there are some good local gems. But there too you'll find more and more lowest common denominator stations programmed (and in many cases voice-tracked) from headquarters far away. (Though I like the Jack format ever since I heard the original in Vancouver in 2002)

That means lowest common denominator programming in a highly regulated radio market.
Playing what most people want to hear is actually a sound business strategy. Nothing wrong with that. The trick is to give out more licenses so that some will have to target the niche markets in order to survive because too many others are already targeting the masses. That is how the government can create more diversity in our media.

Plenty of space here; the American model of "if you can find an available frequency and prove you won't interfere with anyone else, you can have it" would be very nice indeed.

Almost impossible. Doesn't work in tunnels. That's obvious. Doesn't work with Clark's orbit unless satellite is over your roof what is rarely possible on (or close to) equador and impossible anywhere else. LEO satellites are expesive for such bandwidth and beside this, there is no LEO network avaliable for DAB ATM. Look around while you're driving – how often can you clearly see everything, say, over 20 degrees above horizon in 360 degrees around? You wouldn't accept transmission unavaliable for 1% of time only, Clark's sat visibility will be much worse in many cities.

In comparison to sat, VHF/UHF transmission can be very robust since DAB was developed for such environment. The best example is a multipath reception used as redundancy for error correction.

cable99 writes...

This is NOT hifi!

Yep, same as FM radio, which is limited to 15kHz.

I have a Sony Bravia KDL-32V4000 LCD TV which apparently tunes to and plays two ABC digital radio channels, but I can find absolutely nothing to indicate whether these are DAB+ or not. Nor can I find anything about it's potential to receive DAB+ broadcasts after July 1.

I have a full home theatre setup with quite decent audio. I don't watch the screen 24/7 so using my system to listen to digital radio would be great. Would appreciate any information that might shed some light on this.

Alison

alisoncc writes...

two ABC digital radio channels, but I can find absolutely nothing to indicate whether these are DAB+ or not.

No.
Different Systems and incompatible .

baswell writes...

The trick is to give out more licenses so that some will have to target the niche markets in order to survive because too many others are already targeting the masses. That is how the government can create more diversity in our media.

Diversity and the Moratorium
============================

The behaviour of the commercial stations with respect to DAB, is one of almost pure disinterest. Essentially they are producing the same product, but through a different medium.

The critical stimulus of new competition trying new formats, creating target audiences and serving existing target audiences is excruciatingly absent. The excuse of DAB still being at its inception is nonsense. The British have had DAB for ten years, and plans for Australia had been considered for almost as long.

The principal reason for taking up the option of DAB+ licences, seems to have been to squat on a resource to prevent others from using it.

The submission by the commercial station owners, was that almost half a billion dollars ($ 400 million) would be required to digify Australian Radio. This claim was the basis of their attainment of free licences and a moratorium on any new licences for 6 years.

($ 400 million used to be a substantial amount, but that was a different era. Now, a debt of $300 billion to the Communist Chinese is spruiked as no big thing.)

The True Spend

--------------

The consideration of how much was actually spent in the mainland capital cities should be entered into.
Essentially they had to :
- Heave a few new FM antennas up existing towers. The British had developed the equipment over the previous ten years, and the Australian broadcasters just bought “off the shelf”.
- Instal the necessary interface equipment (Multiplexers or whatever).
- Provide some new studio equipment.
- Provide no new cabling between the studios and the towers, as the required of 1 Mbit/sec is handled by almost any digital pathway.

Perhaps $15 million for all of the mainland capital cities is a fair guess. And this figure may not take into account what the Government through the ABC has contributed.

Additionally, it is unclear if the licence holders for the capital cities were required to take up regional licences, and thus pay for the more expensive part of the digital Radio rollout.

Strike down the moratorium

--------------------------

To get the diversity in broadcasting, the moratorium has to be struck down, and 2 or 3 new broadcast frequencies released in each city.

This would provide a maximum of 27 new virtual channels at 128 kbits/sec each. Or if they were principally talk and information channels, 54 channels at 64 kbits/sec each.

The absurd assertion that “community” stations represent diversity still lingers. Usually they are taken over by groups with their own particular social and political agendas: the agenda being inevitably leftist.

Diversity, as defined by the leftists, is to permit a vast array of differing political and social opinions, providing they’re all leftist.

As the analogue TV broadcast spectrum becomes available on the 31st of Dec this year, there will be a huge amount of free space to choose from. An analogue TV station takes 7 MHz of bandwidth. Each DAB+ broadcast frequency takes approximately 1.5 MHz. There should be space for 3 DAB+ broadcasts within each existing Analogue channel.

Public action

-------------

So, hold a public collection for the $15 million (raffles, sausage sizzles..), pay back the commercial licence holders and end the 6 year moratorium.

Naturally it is all pure fantasy. None of the above will happen, and Australia will be stuck with the same old stuff from the same old vendors, based on the principle of leftist “diversity”.

Analogue tv switch off in 2013. Do I hear any bids for 2014?? 2015?? 2016?? Going once, going twice, going three times...

bitseeker writes...

The absurd assertion that “community” stations represent diversity still lingers. Usually they are taken over by groups with their own particular social and political agendas: the agenda being inevitably leftist.

Very good point thats often overlooked,with country/bush commercial Radio stations struggling to be viable and increased networking from the capital cities the landscape is really changing,i know it was mentioned(and removed) in a draft report on the decline of the National Party in NSW.

l0y writes...

Analogue tv switch off in 2013. Do I hear any bids for 2014?? 2015?? 2016?? Going once, going twice, going three times...

and

bitseeker writes...

As the analogue TV broadcast spectrum becomes available on the 31st of Dec this year, there will be a huge amount of free space to choose from. An analogue TV station

My mistake. Last time I checked (a year ago) it was to be the end of 2009 for the capital cities. Now its 2013 and beyond (the announcement was made in October 2008).

When a basic digital set-top box costs the equivalent of a few packs of smokes, the decision for the 4 year delay is beyond bizarre.

The obvious calculation:
1) The Government will hand the media companies say $5 – $10 million per year to promote the switch over (in the form of advertisements). This will tally to about $20-$40 million over 4 years.
2) There are 9 million dwellings in Australia (Bureau of Stats)
3) Half of the dwellings have digital TV already (“Are you ready for digital TV” government site).
4) Whatever the switch off date would be, the above figure would move quickly to over ¾ of the total dwellings.
5) Basic Standard definition set top boxes cost $30-$50.
6) No analogue TV can show any picture gain for High definition broadcasts – they don’t have the resolution.

Subsidy to the “poor”

--------------------

Of the current 4.5 million dwellings without digital, say half are “poor” : thus about 2 million dwellings.

50% subsidy to get a SD set-top box:
2 million x $25 = $50 million.

Which leaves a cost of about $10-30 million after the unnecessary advertising is dropped (How stupid does the government think people are ? Or perhaps it is more a case of how stupid do they need them to be).

Absence of true HD

-----------------

There is only one true High Definition broadcast (1920 x 1080p/1080i) left on Perth digital TV.

With the move to having 3 virtual channels for each broadcast frequency, there isn’t a sufficient bit rate to have true HD:

Virtual channels and HD resolutions (Today in Perth):

ABC : ABC HD , ABC 1 , ABC 2 : ABC HD – 1280 x 720i
SBS : SBS HD , SBS 1 , SBS 2 : SBS HD – 1280 x 720i
10 : “One” HD, “One” SD,10 SD : Ten HD – 1440 x 1080i
9 : Nine HD , Nine SD : Nine HD – 1440 x 1080i
7 : Seven HD , Seven SD : Seven HD – 1920 x 1080i

As to if or when, Seven and Nine will introduce their entitled third virtual channel : no idea.

To have true HD an additional broadcast frequency is required.

To also note:
1) To sell true HD versions of their programs on Disk (Blu-ray) the stations may deliberately reduce the resolution.
2) Broadcast material may be cheaper at SD resolutions than at HD resolutions.
3) The encoding bit rate of the programs can be freely adjusted, giving a significant variation in the quality of the program.
4) Much of the content on the HD channels has been interpolated up (“Scaled up”) to HD resolutions. Nearly all of the movies shown on HD being primarily sourced from DVD’s.

Back to the original point. Were the analogue channels removed, Digital Radio could snare one of them and the TV licence holders (even new ones.. ) the rest. Two licence holders could even share one of the frequencies.

Again it's not going to happen: the Government has created a pointless, mindless wait of 4 years.

baswell writes...

Dude, you obviously haven't listened to the popular stations in major markets!

Perhaps not. But I HAVE listened to many radio stations in major US markets, including LA, SF and NYC.

Most stations in New York are unlistenable due to ads.

I completely and utterly disagree. I'm here in NYC right now and I'm not being buffeted by ads at all. Perhaps you didn't explore the FM band enough.

Playing what most people want to hear is actually a sound business strategy.

Of course. And if there are only a few licences issued in a given market (as in Australia) that's what will be served up. Issue many licences, at low cost, as in the US and hey presto, diversity in offerings becomes available – in order to survive, as you say.

That is how the government can create more diversity in our media.

Yes – but it won't happen because the government is far more interested in optimising licencing revenue. It's a financial exercise – the aggregate revenue from issuing a small number of expensive licences is far greater than the aggregate revenue that the government would get by issuing a large number of cheap licences.

To be perfectly honest, I think DAB is stillborn. Internet radio will rule the roost way before DAB can take a foothold.

ABC & SBS Multiplexers now live!

The following channels are now operating (presumably in test mode prior to the official launch on 1 July):

ABC Local Radio 64 kbps
ABC Classic FM 80 kbps (Bad luck for those who were looking for more bandwidth here)
ABC Dig Music 72 kbps +
ABC Jazz 72 kbps +
ABC Country 72 kbps +
ABC Extra 80 kbps +
ABC Grandstand 48 kbps (currently carrying ABC News Radio)
ABC News Radio 48 kbps
ABC Radio National 64 kbps
SBS Radio 32 kbps +
SBS Radio 1 32 kbps
SBS Radio 1+2h 32kbps +
SBS Radio 2 32 kbps
SBS Radio 2+2h 32 kbps +
SBS Radio 3 32 kbps (same programming as SBS Radio 1)
SBS Radio 3+2h 32 kbps +
SBS Radio 4 32 kbps (same programming as SBS Radio 2)
SBS Radio Extra 32 kbps (Currently rebroadcasting BBC World Service)

+ = no audio is currently being carried

Channel names are as displayed on the DAB+ radio screen with the exception of ABC Local Radio – "Local Radio" will carry the station identifier of the ABC Local Radio AM radio station in your city (eg 774 ABC Melbourne).

The big surprise is the large number of SBS channels – 9 in all, albeit operating at low bandwidth. Presumably the "X+2h" channels will mirror channel X, delayed by 2 hours.

cable99 writes...

ABC & SBS Multiplexers now live!

The following channels are now operating (presumably in test mode prior to the official launch on 1 July):

ABC Local Radio 64 kbps
ABC Classic FM 80 kbps (Bad luck for those who were looking for more bandwidth here)

Oh crap.

So it goes : a 6 year Moratorium wait for new stations, and 4 years for bandwidth.

This thread reminds me of the time I picked up two expensive Philips DAB test receivers in Auction (yep b4 ebay!) and then sold them to the Department in Canberra for 1000% mark up! hehe – nice to get some of that tax back

Jikx writes...

To be perfectly honest, I think DAB is stillborn. Internet radio will rule the roost way before DAB can take a foothold.

I'm inclined to agree. Sound quality aside – it doesn't appear to be catering for those who like 60's and 70's at least not in Sydney anyway.

Jikx writes...

To be perfectly honest, I think DAB is stillborn...

I don’t think DAB in Australia is set for a fast take off either –just look at how tardy the general aust public has been in switching to DTV! And in the case of DTV, at least there was the attraction of bigger-than-CRT screens to capture some attention.

But there’s not an equivalent attraction for DAB. And even the sound quality, (for those who care) looks like not being as good as it could have been. It seems that the actual quantity of channels is going to yet again, win out over quality.

And if that weren’t enough, the initial choices of products on offer are expensive and mostly lacking in features.

Other issues look like being:

• Portable devices will require expensive lithium batteries, but still won’t have the battery-life (duration) of ordinary AM/FM radios.

• Given the VHF frequency used, reception won’t be as trouble-free & long range as what can be achieved with AM band devices.

Despite all this, I won’t be able to help myself -so I will be getting a receiver. But I think that the general aust public overall won’t give a proverbial for DAB!!

But just guessing though!

:)

Bought a Pure Avanti to listen to DAB and have been listening to Internet Radio – USA, UK and even Russia (100% Beetles station), hardly use the DAB+. Maybe will change when ABC goes live? Like BBC World at night and can get it 24/7 on Internet Radio when ABC P&N stays on parliament & does not x to BBC.