Whirlpool

Hello, fellow Jobseekers.

In this economy, everyone wants something for nothing. Especially employers.

Just be aware that it is ILLEGAL for an employer to hire you for even 1 hour of work, and not pay you.

"The law is clear – there’s no such the thing as unpaid trial work.”, says Minister for Industrial Relations, Mr. Tony Kelly MP.

DOB THEM IN TO THE GOVERNMENT:

­    131-628

and

1800-009-623

http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/01/06/Young_workers_exploited_over_summer

http://www.youngpeopleatwork.nsw.gov.au/got+the+job/trial+work.html

....

thanks.. i guess.

No problem.

I keep both phone numbers in my mobile phone, so I can report illegal activity at a moment's notice.

And threaten any unscrupulous employers with action on-the-spot.

maybe its just me, but i have never been asked to 'work' for free... maybe you need to stop hanging around rubbing empoyers?

I was offered free "trial work" by an Indian employer in Sydney CBD, just this last week.

I reported his name & address to the authorities, and they said Compliance Officers are scheduled to visit his workplace next week for some "re-educating".

bunshun writes...

"The law is clear – there’s no such the thing as unpaid trial work.”, says Minister for Industrial Relations, Mr. Tony Kelly MP.

DOB THEM IN TO THE GOVERNMENT:

how about you quote correctly without modifying the original quote to support your argument... The correct quote is:

“In NSW the law is clear – there’s no such the thing as unpaid trial work.”

well done for ensuring the old employee's v's employers mindset well and truely remains!

Correct.

It's also illegal in every other State of Australia, as well.

Not just NSW.

bunshun writes...

scheduled to visit his workplace next week for some "re-educating".

Awesome.. haha..

Even worse are the pyramid schemes where people try to sell you "education" and you have to pay them as well as go out to work.

I live in a regional town (pop approx 50,000) and free work trials are common here. I was surprised when I first came just how widespread they are. I did a day's unpaid work trial once (stupidly) Never, ever again.

jemcaesar writes...

I live in a regional town (pop approx 50,000) and free work trials are common here.

I suppose in a regional town, no-one ever has any money which is why "free trial" scams are rife.

In the City, this would be investigated pronto. But obviously not in the Regions.

I know Newcastle (NSW) Office of Industrial Relations did a big, random sweep of shops and businesses in the NSW Central Coast, Hunter & Newcastle areas for illegal workers & shonky employers, with the Immigration department, in early 2007.

at a place that i worked casually...we received emails from uni students searching for work to gain work experiences and even expressed that they are willing to work for free

i wonder in this case, would it still be illegal for us to have them...

ch@hihs writes...

i wonder in this case, would it still be illegal for us to have them...

no, although you are supposed to pay them (I think it's min $5 a day) that comes under "Work Expierence" with different forms etc..

What happens when u work so many hours for nothing, can u get the money from the employer as well?

liverpool09 writes...

What happens when u work so many hours for nothing

It would depend on how they have 'employed' you. Remember it is NOT illegal for employers to provide unpaid 'Work experience' to many institutions such as schools and tafe etc

Some employers use this as a cheap source of labour, however this usually backfires as you cant do it for long and have no protection if they stuff up.

Usually it is not worth a businesses time or the hassle to try to 'employ' people for free

bunshun writes...

I keep both phone numbers in my mobile phone, so I can report illegal activity at a moment's notice.

;D

Given that these are all verbal shinanigans, unless employers are dumb enough to put it in writing, I guess there's not much one can do to assist the regulators short of having the evidence on tape.

I guess this is an ambigious area. I can think of varying examples and its probably a grey area.
I had a boss that would make job interview applicants build a computer from scratch. I see the good and bad in it.
It saves a staff member spending time doing it but it also allows for the person to be assessed on their performance.
Is that unpaid work?

I know some companies apparently certain fast food outlets make their (usually teenaged) new employees sit through compulsory training with no pay. They have no choice in the matter and told they must do this training for nothing before they can do paid work.

Also what if someone volunteers to do free work? ie a person out of work but wanting to make an impression or get experience for a job eithere there or with a similar company?

Could someone please tell me the difference between 'free work' and work experience?

Cheers

D-Day writes...

Could someone please tell me the difference between 'free work' and work experience?

Work experience is for, well, experience.

bunshun writes...

It's also illegal in every other State of Australia, as well.

I'm curious what makes you say that. From a brief search on the Western Australian Department of Commerce's website, it appears that unpaid trial work is legal in Western Australia, in some circumstances.

How do I know this? A family friend who is under 18 had applied for a new job, and was asked to come in for an unpaid work trial (of three hours) to make sure that a) he liked the job and b) they could see if he worked well.

I wasn't sure whether that was strictly legal, so I decided to go and look. The WA Department of Commerce has a page titled "Vulnerable Workers, Young People" which says (in part):

Under proposed WA legislative reforms, unpaid trial work will be limited to one day per calendar year.

Ref: http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/Corporate/Media/statements/2008/May/Vulnerable_Workers.html

So it would seem, that a blanket statement of "it's illegal in all states" would be inaccurate.

What if im doing volunteer work?

paul_5666 writes...

What if im doing volunteer work?
Only certain organisations (ie charities) can have people doing Volunteer work, and im pretty sure that as a volunteer you can't do duties normally done by a paid employee. ie they cant just say, 'we fired John, you're going to be doing his job cause we dont have to pay you"

Work experience usually has $5 a day minimum and only lasts a short amount of time, and comes under special category of work

Zacspeed writes...

I guess this is an ambigious area. I can think of varying examples and its probably a grey area.
I had a boss that would make job interview applicants build a computer from scratch. I see the good and bad in it.

I have seen a similar skills assessment happen, although it was not build a computer, more of an observe and identify assessment. A standard thing that all applicants went through using the same assessment, so the company was not trying to get free work. I wonder how they are looked upon.

What about an employer who won't pay you overtime... Is that classed as working for nothing?

Zacspeed writes...

I guess this is an ambigious area.

No, it's very black and white.

http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/01/06/Young_workers_exploited_over_summer

Industrial Relations Minister:

“In NSW the law is clear – there’s no such the thing as unpaid trial". “Any work you do you must be paid,” he said. “That’s always been the case.”

If you are offered a Free Trial or "Work Experience", ring 131-628 and demand that Compliance Officers come to the workplace to ascertain if this is legal or not.

Don't make the call yourself.

I had a boss that would make job interview applicants build a computer from scratch.
Is that unpaid work?

Yes.

I know some companies apparently certain fast food outlets make their (usually teenaged) new employees sit through compulsory training with no pay.

Could be illegal. Even if just sitting around and listening to lectures, they should ring 131-628 and demand Compliance Officers come in to ascertain if they should be paid or not.

The new employees themselves should not make the call. They are not qualified to do so.

Also what if someone volunteers to do free work?

They business should have a Registered Charity number.

It's all very black and white to me.

If anyone ever says the words "free trial" or "work experience", you should always ring 131-628.

antigravity writes...

Is that classed as working for nothing?

Yes.

Those discussing "Work experience" as it applies to schools – back when I was in year 10 (1994) it was a minimum of $5 a day that was paid to the student.

Zacspeed writes...

I had a boss that would make job interview applicants build a computer from scratch. I see the good and bad in it.
It saves a staff member spending time doing it but it also allows for the person to be assessed on their performance.
Is that unpaid work?

I guess it depends on whether or not he sold the computer afterwards. As an assessment I see no problem, since this would take less than an hour I would have thought. Most people would see that as a reasonable exercise.

If he was getting 10 guys to come in, build computers then sending them off and putting the computers up for sale, that would be different.

Realistically your boss would be a bit daft if he gave newbies new components to use, since if he lost a part due to bad handling or accident he would lose any benefit right there.

I know some companies apparently certain fast food outlets make their (usually teenaged) new employees sit through compulsory training with no pay. They have no choice in the matter and told they must do this training for nothing before they can do paid work.

I expect there are safety issues involved also. Provided the employee isn't being asked to pay for the training, I doubt this is illegal. How long would it take to train someone for that job? In that instance the person is probably expected to pull their own weight as soon as they enter the store, rather than an office environment where it would take some time to get up to speed with how things work and other procedures.

Also, it should be remembered that the employee is gaining a skill they can carry with them, meaning it increases their chance of employment with another business, same as a qualification in any other industry.

Of course if they don't want to do the training, then they don't have to work there. I am sure most employers would rather not have to handle insurance claim because some untrained worker decided to stick his hand in the deep fryer, just to see it it was really that hot.

paul_5666 writes...

What if im doing volunteer work?

Maybe you are entitled to a tax break?
If it is a charity, you might be able to put a value on your time and claim it as a donation. Try asking an accountant.

bunshun writes...

Hello, fellow Jobseekers.

In this economy, everyone wants something for nothing. Especially employers.

Just be aware that it is ILLEGAL for an employer to hire you for even 1 hour of work, and not pay you.

"The law is clear – there’s no such the thing as unpaid trial work.”, says Minister for Industrial Relations, Mr. Tony Kelly MP.

It's not illegal to do work for free or cash in hand.

The problem is that if you DO do work for free or do cash in hand work you aren't covered by work cover.

But mainly your not paying or trying to dodge out of paying taxes to the government which for that is illegal.

Most businesses won't do work exp or non paid work as they have a major problem on the books as the cash they are paying you has to been shown on the books because when it comes to tax time they'll be getting charged on the money they have earned.

I got told about a guy doing cash in hand getting $800 a week but lost his leg and basically the "employer" rubbed his hands of the issue and said to work cover he never knew him etc, which left him in the hospital with no leg and not cash and nothing to support himself afterwards.

People shouldn't be told to ask for or do work exp as it's a complete waste of time as it means nothing at the end of the day, no employer is going to look at it, go and get the paper work as it proves you know something about the job for real.

You meet people saying they are this and when it comes down to it it's nothing more than heresy as they can't explain or answer simple questions they should know about a job.

The other problem is people going to job interviews saying they have X amount of exp and then can't do the job because it's all BS and the real exp people see this within mins of the person turning up to work.

what do i tell the work experience kid

sorry you cant come because i don't pay you ?

i mean do i have to pay him so he can learn for free how to build and repair pcs

sounds like a bunch of do gooders whinging because they have nothing important to do with their time!

if you WORK you get paid if you don't know that then bad luck let Darwinism take its due course

Blaman writes...

maybe its just me, but i have never been asked to 'work' for free

Me too. I'm amazed anyone would have it happen to them so often that they need the relevant numbers programmed into their phone...

bunshun writes...

Compliance Officers are scheduled to visit his workplace next week for some "re-educating".

Is this anyhting like re-neducation? ala the Simpsons...

"it's not that bad homie... they go in through your nose, and take out a part of your brain.... Who's that big man there... who's that man..."

:)

I did free work at woolies for a whole week once for work experiance. 8am – 3pm

Rothguard writes...

then bad luck let Darwinism take its due course

I'm not having a go at you in particular, Rothguard, but so many people misuse Darwin's Origin of the Species. Darwin specificity shied away from extrapolating his biological theory of evolution (Darwinism) to so-called 'social Darwinism'.

Edit – Apologies for this OT post :P

My very first job was for an agency working as a telemarketer/salesperson on behalf of a large telecommunications company. We were paid commission only, and generally only if 5 sales were made in a week. This involved selling packages to customers on opposition's networks. I found it frustrating and pointless, and lasted a whole month. My sales were not correctly tallied and I left with nada; zilch; $0.

bunshun writes...

No, it's very black and white.

http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/01/06/Young_workers_exploited_over_summer

Sorry, but quoting one very vague article doesn't make you a lawyer. What does the actual legislation say?

I think you will find they are on the lookout for employers who offer "training" which in reality is working for a day or more without pay. Usually grunt work, or easy jobs that require a few minutes worth of instruction. after ten minutes of work the trainee is just as profitable as any other employee.

You obviously have no clue if you think a potential employer would gain financially by having someone do a task for an hour to gauge their aptitude. It would be more than his time is worth.

A quick google seems to indicate *once you are offered a job* your employer must pay you for training, and employ you on a minimum basis etc. If you are told -"We won't offer employment until you complete a certain course", then I doubt they are under any obligation.

You see whatever legislation is put in place someone will find a way around it.

WRXGal writes...

Those discussing "Work experience" as it applies to schools – back when I was in year 10 (1994) it was a minimum of $5 a day that was paid to the student.

That minimum still applies, at least in Victoria. I understand the $5 minimum is also stipulated for 'insurance purposes' on the part of the employer.

paul_5666 writes...

What if im doing volunteer work?

You don't get paid but your on the businesses books so you'd be covered by work cover.

It's not what your doing but what you do to make it as official as you can get is the point, also the employer probably gets a tax break so becomes worth it for them.

So if you broke your leg or cut your hand what ever then you'd be covered to get that fixed up rather than having to pay for any expenses you might get.

I did some unpaid work experience as a teenager. Don't see a problem with that, as both parties were happy with the arrangement.

D-Day writes...

Could someone please tell me the difference between 'free work' and work experience?

Free means you don't get paid. This is illegal, even if it is a temp or trial employment. This is not the same as being asked to do some task in order to see if you are suitable for the job – since you are not actually employed, you are applying for the job at that stage. Though if you are asked to "work" for a day without pay as a trial, then you are being offered employment for a day, so that would be illegal. It wouldn't be illegal for the employer to offer you a days trial at a reduced rate.

"Work experience" means you get paid, often a reduced rate. The idea being you get to learn different facets of the industry you work in. It does happen you are dumped in one spot, learn nothing and are simply used as a short term grunt to do simple tasks, sometimes not even related to the work you expected to be doing.

I'm not sure if they still have "Work experience" programs in schools, but when I was in high school you could go to a workplace for a token amount just to see how a workplace operated etc.

There also was an exploit where the CES would offer to subsidise an unemployed person's wages, so an employer would hire people for the duration of the subsidy, then fire them and get another subsidised employee.

Fred Lurk writes...

I did some unpaid work experience as a teenager. Don't see a problem with that, as both parties were happy with the arrangement.

Provided the employer has good intentions it's fine and not a bad way to go. The problem is too many use this as an exploit to get a few hundred hours of unpaid work. Since, apart from the wage, an employer pays for workers comp insurance, as well as taxes, super, etc – the numbers add up after a few hours.

It's guys like you who get a fair deal that don't complain, so there is no problem.

I'm sharing a house with a guy who brought home $600 per week for a two week training course, (bus driving), with guaranteed employment at the end. He still complained about not being given a free lunch as well for the duration of the course. Some people think that they are entitled to having their arses kissed, shined and brought to them on a platter. ;)

I would work part time at an Accounting firm for 3 or 4 hours out of the day if it would give me experience and learn some new skills. I see nothing wrong with that. The problem is when you are asked to do a 'trial shift' for a lesser job. Standard industry practice a lot of the time. Is illegal but I think it is a good system in the end. At my Dads work they used to make the drivers work an entire week and they'd call it 'training' not pay them for it and often not offer them work either. Recruiters are total scum sometimes.

That being said I've never taken a job that didn't offer paid training. I just wouldn't show up for an unpaid shift unless I knew it was standard.

Big thank-you to the OP for bringing this issue to light.

I recently did 8 hours of work for a "one-man-show" kind of business in the CBD as part of a contract, only for them to suddenly "cancel" the contract without paying me a cent.

I'm going to contact the government first thing tomorrow, as I don't want others to suffer from this person's cruelty.

If you want his contact details, so you know to steer clear of him, feel free to shoot me a WHIM.

It's not right but it's still tough to find a job. If I were unemployed I'd be willing to work a week without pay to prove myself and perhaps land the job, rather than go dibby-dobbing to the government and ultimately have no job at all.

One week without pay or one year without pay?
Yeah, exactly. Suck it upp!

damien275x writes...

If I were unemployed I'd be willing to work a week without pay to prove myself and perhaps land the job

"perhaps" being the figurative word.

If you don't prove yourself, the boss won't pay you a cent.

Not worth your while.

There is not ONE PERSON in Australia who would not feel ripped off if they were told at the end of the "free week" – "Sorry, you're not good enough. Go home"

A job should always come with a 3 month probation, but NEVER free work.

lethalee writes...

Only certain organisations (ie charities) can have people doing Volunteer work

Charities, Government, Health are just a few of the industries I've personally been involved in that use volunteers. As long as you've cleared the red tape anyone can legally employ volunteers.

Jarryd. writes...

D-Day writes...

Could someone please tell me the difference between 'free work' and work experience?

Free work is targeted mainly @ charities, where you have the experience and don't get paid, as you are willing to support non profit organizations.

Work experience is for, well, experience.

So that you can get into your designated field in the future for a pay???

I have a friend that this just happened to yesterday. She goes in for an interview at a restaurant in Brisbane, they get her to work on a 'trial' for 2 hours washing dishes and cleaning tables. Then at the end of it basically say "Sorry we are really looking for someone that can help with the cooking as well, you don't have any experience in that".

She was pretty pissed off about it as they looked at her resume before she even started the trial and knew she didn't have cooking experience.

I should ring this hotline on them. Is it a different number for QLD?

i did something like this a few years ago. granted it was only for an hour and a half in a fish and chip shop but i still felt ripped off (wasnt sure if it was illegal or not)

now i know :)

bunshun writes...

A job should always come with a 3 month probation, but NEVER free work.

Not if it's a casual position and in the blue collar jobs that's what everyone starts as simply so they can prove themselves or be boned no mess no fuss, no unpaid work trial.

damien275x writes...

If I were unemployed I'd be willing to work a week without pay to prove myself and perhaps land the job

So you're prepared to gamble week's worth of transport out of your own pocket (NS is $224 a week) ?

lethalee writes...

Work experience usually has $5 a day minimum and only lasts a short amount of time, and comes under special category of work

I don't think you're supposed to be paid under work experience. The responsibility for insurance usually goes to your high school or university.

I don't know about non-education age people on work experience, but I guess the $5 you mention just classifies them as a paid worker and they are covered under the employer's insurance.

Also, with work experience, you actually go out and seek it. I've never really heard of work experience and then finally working as a paid worker.

As hard as getting a job may be these days, you still have legal rights.

Wait, I did work experience in Year 10 (2006) for the NSW Treasury, I worked from 9-5 for three days, and they didn't pay me a cent. I was supposed to get paid?

sponger58 writes...

Is it a different number for QLD?

In Queensland, ring 1300 737 841

dannyboi writes...

I don't think you're supposed to be paid under work experience. The responsibility for insurance usually goes to your high school or university.

I did 1 day a week work experience in a PC shop in Victoria (~1997) and the store owner only needed to pay me $5, but I got $50 :) (this was part of my Year 11).

Over here in WA you are not allowed to pay students ANY money who a doing work experience via their school. Insurance etc is covered by the government.

Rinty writes...

Over here in WA you are not allowed to pay students ANY money who a doing work experience via their school. Insurance etc is covered by the government.

I'm assuming the $50 was cash in hand.

I don't think it's that you're not allowed to pay students, it's just that the insurance shifts to the employer if they decided to pay officially. Otherwise, the school covers the insurance.

The industry experience I'm doing now is paid, and the insurance is covered by my employer. Otherwise, the university needed some forms filled out so they could cover unpaid work experience insurance.

I remember during my high school days, someone had a fatal accident while working, and the school announced it. I don't know the details of the death, nor do I know the deceased.

The moral of this story is:

occupational health & safety >> money

In NSW Work Experience carried out by the Department of Education is FREE for the business.

It is actually against Department regulations that ANY money be paid to the Work Experience kid. Have had many in the 2 business's i have Managed and now own.

I suggest proper information is presented in arguments. No point going and spreading misinformation. Its all good to dob in shady business's, but not so good for a prospective employer to see this posted by a person seeking work. Especially with unemployment on the rise.

As for Free Work. It is illegal yes, no question. But Unpaid Training is common and Legal in some circumstances. But often the employer's will pay a reduced amount during the "Training period" as an added benefit to lure in more/better workers.

Also the whole building a computer during a interview thing. This is legal, and can be considered part of a normal interview process. As long as the computer that was built was not for sale, and used as either a training PC for interviews or as a In store PC to troubleshoot other computers. If i were to employ someone i would most likely get them to do this, as well as ask them some other questions as in "what does this error message/beep generally mean" and so forth.

Easy Computer Solutions writes...

This is legal, and can be considered part of a normal interview process.

No, it isn't.

I do 9 hours a day sometimes for nothing lol

bunshun writes...

No, it isn't.

Yes it is.

So you consider checking a persons ability to perform a task as work? ie, they say "i can manage difficult situations with ease" You give them a virtual (ie not real just making a scenario in the interview room) situation that may arise in their work environment and ask them what they would do to manage it? Would asking this be considered as work?

If a person came in and said "I know how to build computers, showed a resume (which are/can be easy to fraud) i would not be allowed to check this by asking "put that CPU and Ram into this computer (of which the CPU and RAM would be my test equipment, going into my test MB and my Test rig which i use to diagnose a problem PC). But asking them questions and getting them to play them out is not work?

Bring a proper argument to the table. Show examples not just "yes i am right".. Could this be why you are looking for work? Maybe your work ethic/attitude is not what employee's are after.

EDIT:
Laws are made to be broken... Well not really, but the Law and legislation is and always will/can be open to interpretation (as is anything really). With every/any piece of Law/legislation there is always a way around it. The take a qoute from the former director of the Ferrari F1 team "When a new rule book is introduced, we read it once to understand the rules, and a 2nd time to see how we can interpret it different and find loop holes/ways around it"

I think that the OP has some kind of axe to grind personally and from my reading of the thread is selectively quoting things to push a certain agenda.

I still haven't received a satisfactory reply to the OP's claim that an unpaid work trial is illegal in every state in Australia. The fact that I quoted and provided a reference to a page on a WA Government website showing that in some cases it was legal seems to have been conveniently overlooked.

I have no problem with people putting forward an opinion – but it's slightly annoying when opinions get presented as facts, with no basis to back them up.

Ohgeezx2 writes...

I'm sharing a house with a guy who brought home $600 per week for a two week training course, (bus driving), with guaranteed employment at the end. He still complained about not being given a free lunch as well for the duration of the course.

That's amazing. One of the accounting firms is advertising courses from which they might draw candidates for tax agent work. And naturally these are "fee applies" courses. Not bad if you get 50 people to rock up with no guaranteed outcomes!

Zebedee writes...

think that the OP has some kind of axe to grind personally

i agree

umm what about high school work experience, from my experience you do it for free???

Surely it must make a difference if you volunteer to work for free yourself???

SCADAman writes...

umm what about high school work experience, from my experience you do it for free???

That's already been mentioned...multiple times.

Zebedee writes...

I think that the OP has some kind of axe to grind personally and from my reading of the thread is selectively quoting things to push a certain agenda.

Welcome to the internet. (ok i know you would of been on forums for ages, but i hope you get the point)

Allot of people will shy away from a debate that discredits their information, belief etc. Especially when they know what they have been saying may/is not factual. Instead they either come back with one line that will basically say either "your wrong" "thats a lie" "the world is ending" but not respond to a well rounded argument presented to them.

Myself, i always find these people funny. As they are the types who will normally be hypocritical. Slamming someone for not believing in something when they have evidence, but when the reverse happens they simply ignore it.

More fun to just see how sad of a life it could.would be to be so clouded over in your opinions. Only grabbing here say as fact, thinking because it is so in one state that it is everywhere. Or that they may of been screwed once, so they closed themselves off to the notion that all of humanity is the same and wants to screw you over the first chance they have.

NOTE: I am not directing this at the OP, just making a mere observation on his posts, and the fact he has presented little to no evidence to support such claims. Also i may of gone on to long, but im in one of my pondering moods on the Human condition. That and have had to again help a friend realize what they were doing was leading them down a dangerous path...

Back on topic. Awaiting the OP's reply to my post....

bunshun writes...

Because you hire single mothers with 3 mouths to feed, and then arbitrarily decide not pay them?

Maybe if you added about 20years onto my age. How else can prospective employers and employees properly find jobs/staff if they can't even do unpaid work trials? Paying them for trialing to work makes no sense if you use a bit of logic, if a prospective staff member is ready to do (for example) a 3 hour trial shift, why should it even be looked at as a negative thing for either the employee or employer?

some employers place the same job add every week and ask a person to come in for a "free trial" during a busy time. I have known of at least 6 companys that have done this. they would get free works for 60 or 70 days a year. they never had any intention to employ anybody!

why should it even be looked at as a negative thing for either the employee or employer?

Because it's against the law?

oooh I have to ask is BunShun a Union rep? Sounds like it....lol (But you keep quoting a 'news' website as your sources for 'facts'...)

With regards to your issue with being offered unpaid work – did you really need to add what nationality that employer was? Does it really matter – personally I find that sort of rubbish more offensive than unpaid work....

I worked for 'free' for 2 weeks at a general aviation maintenance firm at Essendon airport prior to getting my apprenticeship and was willing to work for nothing to get the experience to put on my resume, I ended up getting paid the same rates as a first year apprentice at the end of the 2 week period and I never wanted money initially. Not everyone is in their line of employment for the money – for me its an added bonus :oP

If someone approaches a company asking for unpaid work purely to get the experience on their resume is it really that bad if it works out for all concerned anyways? Especially if that person wasn't after any money? This is where a Union getting involved and 'forcing' employer to pay up would shit me to tears...I am eternally grateful to that company that gave me 2 weeks unpaid work..er.. a while ago now lol, as it gave me a leg up into the industry I really wanted to get into – aviation, which at the time was hard enough to get into as it was.

Might want to check things out a bit before ranting and raving about unpaid work, I know a few pilot mates who fly passengers for nothing (ie they DONT get paid any money) purely to rack up hours in their log books for future employment prospects with airlines etc...guess you would want to upset that little system as well since they don't get paid, but get what they want....

geekygirl writes...

If someone approaches a company asking for unpaid work purely to get the experience on their resume is it really that bad if it works out for all concerned anyways? Especially if that person wasn't after any money?

You can decline paid employment but does not mean that it's a rule for everyone?

I think the point here is that it isn't black and white – there is plenty of grey. There are plenty of examples of how unpaid work has paid off. Also several examples of companies abusing it as a way to get free labour.

While I think that there needs to be laws against free labour being exploited, simply stating that it is illegal and dob in any employer who even considers it doesn't help at all. All the circumstances need to be looked at.

one writes...

All the circumstances need to be looked at.

I agree. The Compliance Officers from the government need to go to the job site and look at all the cirumstances.

Easy Computer Solutions writes...

Welcome to the internet. (ok i know you would of been on forums for ages, but i hope you get the point)

Oh don't worry, I've been on the roundabout for quite a while already – I was merely stating the bleedin' obvious ;)

Instead they either come back with one line that will basically say either "your wrong" "thats a lie" "the world is ending" but not respond to a well rounded argument presented to them.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm more likely to listen to someone who says "This is how it is, and I have this information to back it up" than people who make grand, sweeping, unverifiable comments... Or who take one small part of what someone says, and quotes it out of context to try and make a point that the person they are quoting didn't necessarily have anything to do with ...

Case in point:

bunshun writes...

I agree. The Compliance Officers from the government need to go to the job site and look at all the cirumstances.

Reading that sentence with the rest of the post makes a lot more sense, rather than that sentence in isolation.

I'm still mildly curious whether the OP stands by his or her comment that any form of unpaid trial is illegal in every state in Australia as was originally claimed...

my work experience kid just walked in one day and asked if he could do some stuff

sure why not?
he comes in when he wants to does what he want then leaves !
there is usually a selection of things to do
system builds , virus removals, hardware testing, general shelf stocking<-- he sees all the products and leans about the difference between each

while i don't " PAY " him he has purchased some items at cost price

should i be going to jail or getting a fine or what

bunshun writes...

DOB THEM IN TO THE GOVERNMENT:

Well Job seekers are going to be forced to do 'Work Experience' under Mr Rudd's new Universal Employment Services (UES) program!

Webologist writes...

Mr Rudd's new Universal Employment Services (UES) program!

U.E.S. applies to Aboriginals only:

http://www.indigenous.gov.au/economic_opp.htm

I did a full week of "trial" work for an IT co. in Brisbane CBD a quite a few years ago. There was 3 of us there which were trying out for a position, all unpaid.

The position advertised was a technician, like putting PCs together, etc. Strangely at the time, they gave us 3 different roles in the co., 1 tech, 1 storeman and something else; it was strange because if the advertised position was for a techie, yet they got 2 people to do non techie stuff.

Anyway, they obviously had heaps of work there to do, but on the last day one of the techies let it slip to me what they were up to. They knew in advance that they were going to have an influx of work that week so they placed a job ad and thought up this trial scheme because they didn't have enough people to do the work and after the week we all got told that we didn't get the job.

Bastards!

I can see the reasons for outlawing this and removing the exploitation factor, but in these tough economic times, I think it is more critical for employers and businesses to survive.

There is benefit for both parties to benefit – free (lower) cost of labour for the employer/business and work experience for the unemployed.

Perhaps the government should look to pay for these type of work, instead of handing out massive amounts of money (and praying that it will save us from economic doom).

What about 4 hours trial at subway for a 17yo? I just did it yesterday lmao, but i did get a free sub :D

No pay tho! :(

Scott Connie writes...

It's not illegal to do work for free or cash in hand.

I think you'll find 'cash-in-hand' for work ain't legal.

Soo with my work. I do IT Helpdesk

I'm frequently doing 25hrs+ a week Overtime and not getting paid for it aswell as doing 24hr after hours support?

Should i call and see??

Depends whether you're on a wage or salary. If you're a wage-earner you should be receiving overtime but if you have an annual salary, no paid overtime for you.

bunshun writes...

I was offered free "trial work" by an Indian employer in Sydney CBD, just this last week.

i'm not usually the politically-correctness type of guy but how does specifying his race/nationality have any importance?

bunshun writes...

U.E.S. applies to Aboriginals only:

http://www.indigenous.gov.au/economic_opp.htm

no, it doesn't. It's its the new 'Job Network' – for everyone

Webologist writes...

no, it doesn't. It's its the new 'Job Network' – for everyone

But this guy said it on the internet.. It must be real :P

Webologist writes...

no, it doesn't. It's its the new 'Job Network' – for everyone

Yet it only talks about CDEP and Indigenous Employment programs only...

imprsv writes...

I'm frequently doing 25hrs+ a week Overtime and not getting paid for it aswell as doing 24hr after hours support?

Should i call and see??

Depends what contract you signed, what was in your employment contract etc.

You should probably either look for another job, or consult your state Industrial Relations office for more advice.

Chris_O writes...

I think you'll find 'cash-in-hand' for work ain't legal.

As long as you and your employer pay all appropriate taxes, it is.
The method by which you recieve payment doesn't change the legality.
It's the avoidance of certain obligations that is usually associated with these methods that is the problem.

What about if your doing some sort of paid course at an accredited training organisation and as a part of that course they request you to do some sort of intern-ship that is unpaid? For example someone pays to go to classes and then has to come in extra days to do work in their office.

I'm not in this situation yet some people I know are... and they just accept it but I'm not sure if they should.

I don't think Work Experience and Volunteer Work counts. What about companies making junior positions to go under "work experiece program" and make you work like a dog? Is that a loophole?

Mathew. writes...

That minimum still applies, at least in Victoria. I understand the $5 minimum is also stipulated for 'insurance purposes' on the part of the employer.

Under some circumstances, you must "sign over" that $5 a day back to the organisation (ie: charities, schools, churches, etc)

imprsv writes...

Soo with my work. I do IT Helpdesk

I'm frequently doing 25hrs+ a week Overtime and not getting paid for it aswell as doing 24hr after hours support?

Should i call and see??

You're not working for free... just doing more work than you are contracted to perform.

It's your judgement to demand better compensation for the work you do, chase a different job that pays you for all the hours you work, or put up with it because just maybe it's the best job you can get right now.

edit: might also be a sensible time to look into unions or other organisations.

MisterH writes...

Chris_O writes...I think you'll find 'cash-in-hand' for work ain't legal.

As long as you and your employer pay all appropriate taxes, it is.

but the usual meaning of "cash-in-hand" is, I work you pay cash that's the end.
No invoice, no records, probably no warranty, hell probably not even my real name.

Cash pay <> cash in hand (wish I knew how to type crossed out equal sign for that).

User 269770 writes...

In this economy, everyone wants something for nothing. Especially employers.

Why would anybody want someone to work for free? It's quite obvious that they will do a bad job. No normal person with reasonable experience will work for free. So eventually you will pay more to fix things. See NAB's example with Satyam. And that was not even free just cheaper. Now they will end up with a bill much much higher than had they just left it inhouse.

Too many employers concentrate on cost saving and not on value and quality.

Sydney Garrie writes...

but the usual meaning of "cash-in-hand" is, I work you pay cash that's the end.
No invoice, no records, probably no warranty, hell probably not even my real name.

I disagree – while "cash in hand" to some people means that, it doesn't mean that to all. You're more than entitled to receive the same guarantees/warranties that you normally would receive if you were paying by eftpos, cheque or credit. You're also entitled to a tax invoice.

I know many people who pay cash for services and receive invoices for the services rendered.

PrettyInPink writes...

I disagree – while "cash in hand" to some people means that, it doesn't mean that to all. You're more than entitled to receive the same guarantees/warranties that you normally would receive if you were paying by eftpos, cheque or credit. You're also entitled to a tax invoice.

It also means super and other protections that are afforded as employees of a business. Then again, I have seen numerous Chino IT chopshops dodge this in order to maximise return for the business The same principle probably applies to the Chino massage booths in shopping centres..

Mathew. writes...

That minimum still applies, at least in Victoria. I understand the $5 minimum is also stipulated for 'insurance purposes' on the part of the employer.

Definitely doesn't apply in NSW anymore.

User 269770 writes...

U.E.S. applies to Aboriginals only:

How universal.

D-Day writes...

Could someone please tell me the difference between 'free work' and work experience?

Cheers

Ask that in a brothel. :)

Came across the following ad:

"Looking for a traveller or student willing to work a few hours per week in return for accommodation in a hostel."

...etc etc...

"This is a live in position which means that you must live in the hostel. The accommodation provided is either a 4 bed or 6 bed dormitory (shared) room. Unfortunately, there are no exceptions to this rule."

...etc etc...

Waddya reckon, Yay or Nay or Gray?

User 269770 writes...

And threaten any unscrupulous employers with action on-the-spot.

Yay for getting no shifts!

My daughter is a Qualified Chef. It is very difficult to get any job in the Hospitality Industry including registered clubs without first doing a 'Trial shift'.

dotNet Dev writes...

Waddya reckon, Yay or Nay or Gray?

That's legal. A lot of people do it – take the cherry pickers, most of them are international tourists who are backpacking around, and they pick cherries in return for accommodation.

MisterH writes...

As long as you and your employer pay all appropriate taxes, it is.

Most people would use the term 'cash-in-hand' to mean without being on the books. Is why I have the term in inverted commas. I'm sure you knew what I meant and your just playing 'silly buggers'. ;)

Links below show examples of the term's use.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/16/1052885380731.html

http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse/Current%20Students%2FYour%20Work%20Your%20Rights%2FWork%20and%20Rights%2FCash%20in%20Hand%20Work/

EDIT for clarity

i know a super market which does this, they employ night fillers on a so called "trial period" for at least 10 hours of work, and they don't get paid. So would this be considered illegal?

Zebedee writes...

a blanket statement of "it's illegal in all states" would be inaccurate.

Cool man!!! WA rules...!!

Virgil Hilts writes...

Because it's against the law?

well I was happy working an unpaid 3 hour trial session to see if I was suitable for a job a few years ago, I guess the law isn't infallible.

I have a question regarding internships. Does this law apply to free internships as well?

Unpaid "trials" are illegal, as it's illegal work. If you work a trial period/shift, you shoudl still be paid for it. but I know that often we're not! just be careful, as you're not covered for workers comp if you get injured, and you're unpaid.

you can sign release form with agreements between your employer for unpaid work experience period.

if you agree to it and it's in writting it's pretty hard to sue.

Unpaid work experience is legally arranged by the school, or college, or university, adn someone takes out insurance for injuries etc.

Unpaid work experience or trial arranged between the jobseeker and the employer is not legal. And a contract cannot over-ride a law.

What about a job which is commission only?

It has the same potential as no money..

I ask this because the other day I went for a job and it was commission only also their was 6 days training which was also unpaid and the probation period was for 6 days.

So you did the training which was unpaid for then do their little test if you werent up to scratch then they assume the job isnt for you and let you go.

If you do pass then you have a role which may not even put bread and button on the table at the end of the day..

I asked this company who the client was and they wouldnt tell me untill round 2 of the interview – i never went back..

Is this legal? I ask for many reasons.

I'm on the dole and have an income If i was to tell centrelink that I went for this job and didnt go back they would cut my dole off for 2 weeks due to me not trying my hardest to get the job which is breaching contracts..
So is this legal?

C'link can't cut you off the dole for a commission-only job.

That particular job, you'd need to be determining if you were an independant contracter... if you had to get an ABN etc, or whether the employer covered you. A lot of those jobs are borderline dodgey, or wholly dodgey. You need to ascertain your actual relationship with the "employer"; are you a separate business selling their product? If not, what exactly is your tie with them.

tigs69 writes...

So is this legal?

who knows?... you will NEVER get a straight answer...

but since the media has successfully bashed into all your heads that unions are bad for the last 50 years...and support dwindle to nothing... Unions being protrayed as thugs and bullies...

union powers got stripped away and you all sat there watching TV...

now who fights for your rights? NO one...and you sit there watching TV

you all blew it away and you are now all suffering...but at least you're watching TV...

why dont you lot learn from History, read about the Industrial Revolution and how it shafted everyone...

and read about how people started violent acts and protests and to quell these unrests, Unions were formed...

in those days, Business was King also....

thats why Unions rose up... and business was pacified...

to the common man, the Governtment doesnt give a rats arse and the capitalists will bleed you dry if they can...

400 years later and nothing has changed... in fact we're heading back that way daily....

welcome to the twilight zone mate... thats what you get for being apathetic...

now go back to watching your TV and praising political correctness and global warming ..and whatever BS they come up with next year...

and sadly... keep getting shafted... with only confusion to guide you...

hope that clears up a few things about the legalities to work for nothing or not...

oh and study 'slavery' too...

snowant writes...

You need to ascertain your actual relationship with the "employer"; are you a separate business selling their product? If not, what exactly is your tie with them.

and who exactly can determine that? where is it defined?

great...more confusion... but not even close to any answer...

ask any babyboomer around...they had it made... Unions would make sure everyone got paid and did decent hours...

they never had any confusion about their work rights...

times like these you wish Unions were around to bash some of these employers with what they are getting away with...

and kick the Governments arse too..

tigs69 writes...

What about a job which is commission only?

from my own (very brief) experience, they set you up with your own abn so you are essentially doing contract work.

where i was they had a day of training which they'd pay you for once you'd completed your first 8 days. i did about 3 and walked..

dotNet Dev writes...

Waddya reckon, Yay or Nay or Gray?

Living in hostels across the world, I have always been willing to work there for free in exchange for accomondation. Its a great way to save on costs :-0

User 269770 writes...

I was offered free "trial work" by an Indian employer

and for +20 points, the relevance of the employers race is....

snowant writes...

if you had to get an ABN etc, or whether the employer covered you.

Very important:

Regardless of anything else, the Australian Taxation Office will consider you an employee of a company if 80% or more of your work comes from that one, dodgy-commission-only company, and you will taxed extremely heavily:

http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/22249.htm

Despite what these dodgy commission-only businesses say to your face, the ATO will consider you as a "permanent staff member". Yet you do not get sick-leave, holidays, workers comp. and all the other benefits a permanent staff member in an other company takes for granted.

And these days, the ATO just makes blanket, arbitrary determinations – "We hereby declare that you are a permanent employee of dodgy commission-only business, and will be treated as such."....and then you have to take it to the Commonwealth Ombudsman to get it overturned. It's just not worth it; the ATO always wins, they have millions of dollars to spend to crush the common man & get their Government revenue one way or another.

Be very careful – all commission-only jobs in the year 2009 are dodgy, IMHO, as you are taxed heavily by the ATO as if you were permanent, with none of the permanent perks & benefits.

A lot of those jobs are borderline dodgey, or wholly dodgey.

I wholeheartedly agree.

All commission-only jobs in the year 2009 are dodgy.

Well... free work may be illegal...but I keep on working for free and my employer freely accepts my extra work and doesnt pay me...

Can I dob in my employer to the IT Police? If I do so, Will the Core Quad Fuzz grant me some chocolate money, an iPhone and a free laptop?

Yes it is very illegal.

My Girlfriend went for a trial week of work at a cafe in Bendigo called 'The green olive'. They didn't pay her for the whole week and asked her to do 60 hours. At the end of the week they said "Thanks but you didn't get the job". This had been going on for over 3 months and a different person was used each week.

I knew this was wrong straight away and rang the ombudsman for her as she was scared she might be blacklisted from the whole cafe scene in Bendigo by doing so.

At the end of it a few weeks later she was paid out at $14 per hour and only paid for 38 hours work as this was all they recorded and admitted to. I ended up getting her a job with me and she is staying away from the Cafe's now.

Anyone who has had the same thing happens to them I recommend you call the ombudsman asap. You have the right to be paid for any work. If you earn less then $100 you don’t need to fill in a tax form.

Well... free work may be illegal...but I keep on working for free and my employer freely accepts my extra work and doesnt pay me...

Can I dob in my employer to the IT Police? If I do so, Will the Core Quad Fuzz grant me some chocolate money, an iPhone and a free laptop?

So you are working for a "Core Quad Fuzz grant me some chocolate money, an iPhone and a free laptop" then.

from today
work choices is dead

do your self a favor and join a union.

Goliath Manhood writes...

So you are working for a "Core Quad Fuzz grant me some chocolate money, an iPhone and a free laptop" then

No... I havent dobbed in the employer yet... but who knows... the choc money is edible, doesnt need recharging, has no OS, is virus free, is an aphrodisiac... this may turn her on (my boss)... maybe the Core Quad Fuzz are LAN Gals? Maybe...

wifi user writes...

do your self a favor and join a union.

In a past life I hired a person straight from some CAE institute, told her she was on 3 months' probation, and recommended that she join the relevant union (of which I was then still a member, even though my role obviated a need for that).

In only a few days she proved utterly incapable of doing the work she allegedly was trained to do, her attitude was abysmal (stretching out luxuriously in a busy office with her legs on the table, for instance, and upsetting clients on the 'phone).

I decided I had to 'let her go' within this first week and – to save her embarrasment and possibly a crying scene – took her to a nearby coffee shop to explain my reasons.

She turned around, joined _my_ union and sued me for breach of contract. It went to court, and my company was ordered to pay out the three months, and pay costs.

I resigned from my union, and have had a dim view of union behaviour ever since. If you _need_ a union to fight for you by all means join one – on the whole, I believe, they've outlived their usefulness and are more hindrance than help... Sorry, Sharon!

carioca writes...

I resigned from my union, and have had a dim view of union behaviour ever since.

Thats a shocking story but not surprising. Unions have their place but most of the time they are always too willing to go overboard unnecessarily. Very sly; like a socialist version of lawyers.

carioca writes...

I decided I had to 'let her go' within this first week
She turned around, joined _my_ union and sued me for breach of contract.

Where's the Breach Of Contract? She was on 3 Months Probation!

Every business as 3 Months Probation!

Some even have 6 Months.

Can I dob my parents in then for making me mow the lawn for NOTHING?!

Dark Heart writes...

Can I dob my parents in then for making me mow the lawn for NOTHING?!

Anyone can dob on anyone for anything.

But, Fair Work Australia will not investigate.

You don't have to mow the lawn; JUST SAY NO!

IEEE754 writes...

User 269770 writes...I was offered free "trial work" by an Indian employer

and for +20 points, the relevance of the employers race is....

Yep, I'll throw in a fiver if anyone can answer that as well.

That post should be marked as off topic.

MingleII writes...

Yep, I'll throw in a fiver if anyone can answer that as well.

It was "free trial" work, but all the curry he could eat. It is important to now that he is Indian, so that you know it will be an authentic curry, and really hot too. I agree with the original poster, Indians make the best curry!

I work 4-6 hours extra a week. Is this legal?

jamie99 writes...

I work 4-6 hours extra a week. Is this legal?

Are you paid by the hour or on a salary ?

I find this is rife mostly through dodgy telecommunications companies (where they can get away with it because of a commission clause) and definitely privately owned fast food places/ cafes etc. This happened to one of my gf's friends (who is korean) about 3 times in a row... I think the jerks saw an opportunity to exploit someone who would be ignorant of Australian laws and not much of a chance she would dob them in to take advantage of her. One place she worked for 3 weeks trial and got paid nothing >.<. She apparently did very good work which I believe and they told her this – just said they didn't have enough business to keep her.

Alot of employers will be dodgy if given the chance. I had this happen to me once, but I fought it and got a big payout of what was owed.

I am curious about work experience and working for charity though... I have worked for a few charities before donating my time for free – does anyone here know if it is possible for me to claim that on a tax return somehow?

Also with work experience laws in QLD – I have done a fair bit of work experience during my uni days (and yes it definitely did help me in getting a couple of jobs) but I have never ever heard of minimum $5 a day – even our school/ uni never told us this when they signed us up...

Don't know if this has been asked before, but what if you offer to work for free for a non-charity company?

thats funny – i just saw an advert on the jobs board for 1-2 days a week for two months, unpaid "internship". Same thing or am I totally off the track?

AndyG123 writes...

does anyone here know if it is possible for me to claim that on a tax return somehow?

No.

scrim-reaper writes...

Don't know if this has been asked before, but what if you offer to work for free for a non-charity company?

Illegal, under the new Fair Work Act.

The Unions would have a field day if they found out you are working completely for free.

Otaku writes...

thats funny – i just saw an advert on the jobs board for 1-2 days a week for two months, unpaid "internship". Same thing or am I totally off the track?

I'm pretty sure we don't have unpaid internships here, that's an american thing.

All unpaid work is strictly controlled here, ... if it's part of a tertiary course and it's the on-the-job training component, there'll be a raft of things around it.

For a job to be advertised, and called an 'internship' sounds extremely dodgy.

Worked at a food manufacturer a while ago, was asked to clean the place up for a trial run and did that in 6 hours. After i finished, was told they dont need me anymore n didn't pay me. Later next month they started advertising again for people to "help"..

scrim-reaper writes...

Don't know if this has been asked before, but what if you offer to work for free for a non-charity company?

What happens if you slip over carrying something heavy at this free work? You then pop a disc out in your back and it costs you $3000 in medical bills and pain killers. Are you going to deal with free work cover?... I think not. Are you going to sue?.. I think not as well. If you are on a work site there should be a minium of some sort of signed agreement between you and your employer just in case things go bad.

snowant writes...

For a job to be advertised, and called an 'internship' sounds extremely dodgy.

So is this just dodgy or illegal?

http://whirlpool.net.au/jobs/?action=job&id=1374

Soulless writes...

So is this just dodgy or illegal?

http://whirlpool.net.au/jobs/?action=job&id=1374

thats the one I was talking about – seems well dodgy to me....not sure about illegal though

User 269770 writes...

Just be aware that it is ILLEGAL for an employer to hire you for even 1 hour of work, and not pay you.

Just a little off topic perhaps, but is this also the case for year 10 students doing work experience? A cousin of mine worked at a primary school for a week, and was not paid a cent.

XS

Just a little off topic perhaps, but is this also the case for year 10 students doing work experience? A cousin of mine worked at a primary school for a week, and was not paid a cent.

XS

This has been discussed at length earlier in this thread. School/Uni based work experience is a totally legitimate practice. Unpaid 'Trial periods' are illegal.

bcf01 writes...

This has been discussed at length earlier in this thread. School/Uni based work experience is a totally legitimate practice. Unpaid 'Trial periods' are illegal.

ah okay. Thanks for clarifying that.. I guess I should've read the whole thread :)

XS

http://whirlpool.net.au/jobs/?action=job&id=1374

thats the one I was talking about – seems well dodgy to me....not sure about illegal though

I found this thread which seems to suggest that its illegal (i.e. not covered by insurance if your not being paid).

/forum-replies.cfm?t=1098557

It says hourly on my payslip.

Soulless writes...

http://whirlpool.net.au/jobs/?action=job&id=1374

This is illegal and should be reported FOR FREE to:

Compliance Team,
Fair Work Ombudsman,
REPLY PAID 2567,
ADELAIDE SA 5001

childwild writes...

This is illegal
There's an entire internship website advertising unpaid intern jobs.
Is there something that sets 'internships' and regular jobs apart?

http://www.internshipaustralia.com.au/?template=hot_interns
These ones seemed to be aim at O/S workers...

Kell-O writes...

Is there something that sets 'internships' and regular jobs apart?

I'm wondering the same thing... I can't find anything on this topic any of the government websites....

childwild writes...

This is illegal and should be reported FOR FREE to:

quite simply, crap.

We have for countless years, and will continue to do, offer internships, at anyone one time there are 10+ intern's within our organisation

Brad. writes...

We have for countless years, and will continue to do, offer internships, at anyone one time there are 10+ intern's within our organisation

Not them working for free. Its illegal.

So why shouldn't we make voluntary work illegal too? That's working for free. Let's make it illegal.

childwild writes...

Illegal, under the new Fair Work Act.

The Unions would have a field day if they found out you are working completely for free.

WTF why can't you offer to work for free?

barely-legal writes...

why can't you offer to work for free?

Because it's illegal.

Write to your local Federal member, if you want to change the law.

~Devils~ writes...

Not them working for free. Its illegal.

Can someone actually provide a division and section under which the FWA deems it illegal to provide work on a voluntary basis to a commercial entity?

barely-legal writes...

WTF why can't you offer to work for free?

An employee can work for "free" (more accurately for "no financial compensation") but it depends on several factors. Examples ...

-If the labour in a particular market industry is unionised, then there could be some legal difficulties because the pertinent union would expect their members to be paid the appropriate legal entitlements (eg. award rates, etc.)

-It would be risky for an employee to work for no charge if they are not sure as to whether their work is covered by the employer's insurance policies. So the employee would need to be sure of potential liabilities before offering such services.

-Afaik, there is no Govt. impediment to working for no charge. But if there are no other obstacles, the employer could pay the employee something (eg. a single dollar!) to get around that.

I know of several people who have worked for no charge – esp during initial trial periods – without any problems. But of course, the employee has chosen to do this. It hasn't been forced upon them by the employer.

And of course, many startup businesses are operated by workers (owners) who can (technically) work for no charge for such time as till the business becomes profitable.

Cheers :)

Whirl writes...

-Afaik, there is no Govt. impediment to working for no charge. But if there are no other obstacles, the employer could pay the employee something (eg. a single dollar!) to get around that.

They would have to pay atleast minimal wage... for anything to be legal. Paying a someone $1 to work full day is illegal...

Its interesting this is brought up, while how laws have evolved. It seems like its legal for British Airways to ask there employees to work 1 day a month for free :P

Gnuthad writes...

illegal to provide work on a voluntary basis to a commercial entity?

http://www.sdansw.org.au/www/content/view/119/122/

"All work done must be paid for."

childwild writes...

Because it's illegal.

yeah but my question is why is it illegal

barely-legal writes...

yeah but my question is why is it illegal

Because it becomes far to easy to manipulate, con,scam and exploite workers into working for free for no real valid reason.

Zacspeed writes...

I had a boss that would make job interview applicants build a computer from scratch. I see the good and bad in it.

Sounds like part of the interview process to me. How long does it take to build a computer, 30 minutes tops?

Seik writes...

Sounds like part of the interview process to me. How long does it take to build a computer, 30 minutes tops?

You could use building a computer as part of a interview process if it was a test system, not that of a customer.

childwild writes...

http://www.sdansw.org.au/www/content/view/119/122/

Their server is stuffed as it's failing to respond to any requests.

Do you have a link to actual law, or are you restricted to non-legal organisations? I note that Google informs me that sdansw is the "Shop, Distributive & Allied Employees' Association, NSW Branch." who is not what I would call an authority in actual law.

User 269770 writes...

Especially employers.

... and employees.

Yes it is illegal, but if it will lead to paid work after a day, why not just do it

childwild writes...

Because it's illegal.

connico writes...

They would have to pay atleast minimal wage... for anything to be legal.

APersonOutThere writes...

Yes it is illegal

Is there a documented Australian Federal Law or any State Law that suggests this is the case in all circumstances. (Imho, a web link to a .gov.au site would probably suffice!)

(Re: the Fair Work Act 2009 legislation ... doesn't it only apply to Federal Awards and Enterprise Agreements? What is stopping a sole trader, partnership or owner / operator of a PTY LTD. business providing 'services' to a client at no charge .. (ie to work for 'free'))

User 269770 writes...

Just be aware that it is ILLEGAL for an employer to hire you for even 1 hour of work, and not pay you.

It's certainly NOT ILLEGAL to offer a prospective employer the opportunity to 'contract' your services for no charge. And it's not illegal for the prospective employer to accept that contract. So you can work for someone else for 'free', as long as it's on your own terms.

Cheers :)

Whirl writes...

the Fair Work Act 2009 legislation ... doesn't it only apply to Federal Awards and Enterprise Agreements?

No.

The States have now given all Industrial Relations rights and powers over to the Federal Government, with the new "Fair Work (State Referral and Consequential and Other Amendments) Bill 2009":

http://www.workplace.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/05EAB952-FACF-40EA-B37A-7D657DA86EF1/0/fwsrcoabill2009.pdf

What is stopping a sole trader, partnership or owner / operator of a PTY LTD. business providing 'services' to a client at no charge .. (ie to work for 'free'))

Mr Nick Wilson, the new Fair Work Ombudsman.

Ask him, if you don't believe me:

Mr Nick Wilson,
Fair Work Ombudsman,
REPLY PAID 2567,
ADELAIDE SA 5001

Well... let me see...

ACME walks into this workplace and the employer has ACME working and doesnt pay ACME?

So, am I to assume that ACME didnt complete an application form or two, declared his TFN, Super fund details, BSB details for payroll, maybe had a workplace induction (safety, meal times, hours of work, intro to employees, handshake with Martha – the voluptuous Employee Relations Manager, Cindy the buxom First Aid Officer, etc)....

No! ACME just started to slave away...

Then Bye, Bye..!
ACME! You arent ZEMO... so there is no more work for you and you wont get paid...

ACME is a complete sucker?!
OR the agreement is...

ACME initially agreed to non paid internship...
and if ACME becomes hurt due to a workplace injury...

The employer hopefully – for the employers sake – has sufficient and appropriate workplace/public liability insurance to cover ACME and the employer, if and when a 'Force Majeure' or LTI (Lost Time Injury) or workplace accident may arise...

In this case ACME sustained a workplace injury when Martha decided to help locate the LAN cable somewhere underneath his desk running toward the mainframe and his chair...

Cindy applied First Aid... this was of great relief to ACME... but he still required further medical treatment...

BUT hey? Wasnt ACME working for free... and if he was, wasnt his employer complicit?
Seriously, Martha the Employee Relations Manager, she is completely innocent and divine...

childwild writes...

Mr Nick Wilson, the new Fair Work Ombudsman.

Ask him, if you don't believe me:

So you're telling me that the various companies that provide me with services for no charge – as a trial sample of their work in the hope of garnering me as a paying client – are breaking the law?

Cheers :)

Fair Work Australia says the following about unpaid work:

"Unpaid work trials are generally against the law. You should not ask people to work for free."

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/Things-everyone-should-know/Work-practices-to-avoid/Pages/default.aspx?role=employers

This NSW IR site, also makes it clear,

http://www.industrialrelations.nsw.gov.au/Workers/Starting_work/Trial_work.html

This QLD site even provides an example:

A recent case involved a Sunshine Coast woman who was required to perform four days unpaid part-time work as a training trial during which she was to be considered for employment at a nail salon. This was despite her existing qualifications and experience as a nail technician.

The woman performed the trial in the hope of continuing employment, but was then denied employment. Had the Queensland Workplace Rights Office not intervened this employer would have benefited from four days free work. After intervention by the Queensland Workplace Rights Office, the employer paid the woman for her work and the unlawful practice was reported to the federal Workplace Ombudsman for further investigation.

http://www.wageline.qld.gov.au/irp/autumn08_unfairwork.html

Seems quite clear that unpaid work trials in Australia are illegal.

PH34R writes...

Seems quite clear that unpaid work trials in Australia are illegal.

Seems very clear to me, too.

I would definately write to the Fair Work Ombudsman first with your own name, the name of your potential FREE employer, and say "I am willing to do FREE WORK for this employer. Please write back to me and tell me that you authorize me to do so".

I bet you any money you will get a "The FWO Office does not agree for you to work anywhere for free."

Free work is illegal in Australia, under any circumstances.

The NSW Industrial Relations says to get photographic evidence and witnesses. The might be a bit difficult in the hospitality sector eg a kitchen. Quite often other employees are related to the owner so they would be unlikely to take the the side of the person doing the trial.

cabletee writes...

The might be a bit difficult in the hospitality sector eg a kitchen.

Very true.

Therefore, never work for free.

Either you get Paid, or you do this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(Australia)#Newstart_Allowance

Has anyone got any further with reconciling internships into the mix?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern

According to the wiki entry it's European Labour concerns that keeps internships unpaid

childwild writes...

Either you get Paid, or you do this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/​Social_Security_(Australia)#Newstart_Allowance

Doesn't Centrelink suggest volunteer work as a means of obtaining skills? Why would they recommend something which you allege is illegal?

Gnuthad writes...

Doesn't Centrelink suggest volunteer work as a means of obtaining skills?

more an intangible way of wasting peoples time to keep them off the unemployment figures when they need full time work and a living wage

Whirl writes...

So you're telling me that the various companies that provide me with services for no charge – as a trial sample of their work in the hope of garnering me as a paying client – are breaking the law?

Depends. Could be that you are breaking the law by accepting their services. OTOH, "client" and "employer" are different concepts and "service provision" is not neccessarily the same as "employment".

Gnuthad writes...

Doesn't Centrelink suggest volunteer work as a means of obtaining skills? Why would they recommend something which you allege is illegal?

Yes they do recommend volunteering. However there is a big difference between volunteering and unpaid work trials. Here is a link to the formal definition of Volunteering.

http://www.volunteeringaustralia.org/files/AOAL2F8K3S/VA%20Definitions%20and%20Principles%20June%202005.pdf

PH34R writes...

Here is a link to the formal definition of Volunteering.

Definition of formal volunteering actually.

Gnuthad writes...

Doesn't Centrelink suggest volunteer work as a means of obtaining skills?

Only for GreenCorp & other Charities.

Why would they recommend something which you allege is illegal?

They don't.

childwild writes...

Only for GreenCorp & other Charities.

Ahhh, so they do recommend volunteer work!

They don't.

Clearly they do advise their clients break the law by working but not getting paid: /forum-replies.cfm?t=1136407&r=19853144#r19853144

Gnuthad writes...

Ahhh, so they do recommend volunteer work!

Absolutely.

Centrelink's mantra is that any legal Volunteering work at a non-for-profit agency will help you find work faster, and will allow you to keep leeching off Newstart if they have approved it as a legitimate "Activity Test" activity:

http://www.govolunteer.com.au/volunteer/content/centrelink.htm

Green Corp work cleaning gardens and cleaning up rivers & lakes is called a Centrelink-approved "Community Activity". Centrelink even pay you up to $20 in Fares to get to the site!

Clearly they do advise their clients break the law by working but not getting paid

No, they don't.

childwild writes...

Green Corp work cleaning gardens and cleaning up rivers & lakes ..

That's a gross understatement. I've worked along side Green Corp students and they do a lot more then "cleaning". Seed propagation at professional nurseries and rain forest restoration and management would be closer to the mark.

Centrelink even pay you up to $20 in Fares to get to the site!

Not at all. You get a subsidy of just over $20 to cover general expenses, not travel in particular. All the Green Corp people I've seen are driven to the site(s) in 16 seater Toyota vans.

Now does this include so-called information sessions? Because as a young job seeker I can't count the number of times I applied for a job and they requested that I come in for a group information session in which they inform me about what the job entails. This session usually lasted about two – three hours, and was of course, unpaid. I know training has to be paid for, but I have seen that lots of employers are now hesitant to label anything as "trining" because they know you have to be paid for it and training has been relabelled an "information session" by dodgy companies! Is this illegal as well?

i have training for 2 weeks without pay for a job, its more for a apprenticeship though but i still think they should pay me for turning up

ksystem writes...

i have training for 2 weeks without pay for a job,

Maybe report them to fairpay.gov.au or other govt body they are not allowed to do this.

whats the deal with underpaid workdays?

we work more than we are paid each standard day. told it's part of the agreement.

forumer17 writes...

whats the deal with underpaid workdays?

what are these exactly, sounds illegal

we work more than we are paid each standard day. told it's part of the agreement.

an agreement that includes free overtime or free work would also be illegal

Why does the government have to make it illegal?

Are people that stupid that they work for free?

DanD writes...

Why does the government have to make it illegal?

Are people that stupid that they work for free?

Short Answer: Yes

Slightly longer answer: It is not so much "stupidity" but vulnerability. Soone desperate for work told that they might get it based on how they handle an unpaid trial is likely to agree.

The issue isn't so much the "trial work", but how do you stop employers from abusing this? Imagine a job which even a trained monkey could do, night fill, for example – it takes no training to tell someone to drop a pallet on the ground and tell you to put it on the shelf.

Every night, another "trial member" who "doesn't fit company culture" or something along those lines.

The easiest enforceable solution is to make it unpaid work illegal.

I did an unpaid trial when I was about 18 and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't realise until afterwards it was illegal. When I figured it out a few months later I never reported them. I wish now I had. I reckon they were getting young people to do that to cover the lunch hour. I was asked to stay a bit longer on my trial, oddly enough when one worker had to go to lunch. Hmmm. I mastered EFTPOS and everything really fast and made no errors, yet never got the job and I saw them advertising AGAIN a few times in the following months. Guess the cost of the ads resulting in so much unpaid labour was cheaper than picking up extra people for the lunch shift.

We've got an issue with service department booking in express service cars through our lunch hour, with the guys on the express service bays working through lunch, can we dob in the employer?

Thanks much.

ThatCoolKid writes...

with the guys on the express service bays working through lunch, can we dob in the employer?

Its not unusual in some jobs to work through lunch, the important part with that system is that the workers get paid during the time they should be having lunch, if not Dob em in !

I've said this before, but where I am now has it enshrined in their contract all staff sign that they will be required sometimes to work unpaid overtime. I notice that we have an interstate meeting programmed which falls on a public holiday. Bonus for them, they won't have to pay for that, either!

People are getting away with this stuff because it's all complaints-based now, nothing happens until someone lodges an official complaint. And when you go down that path, you often find it's so hard to progress it, most give up.

snowant writes...

People are getting away with this stuff because it's all complaints-based now, nothing happens until someone lodges an official complaint.

This is why unions are needed and will be needed more than ever before, employers have far to much power to manipulate and corrupt the system, and it usually takes quite a few employees with enough ballz to stand up and make a complaint, this allows employers open power to do pretty much anything they like

A legal form of free work is Work for the Dole. Employers can get someone from Work for the Dole instead of paying wages to someone to do the work. "We can get someone from Work for the Dole- it will save us money". Free work is more or less exploitation = slave labour. No one should have to work for nothing.

numonex writes...

No one should have to work for nothing.

they are working for the dole

Mohammed. writes...

they are working for the dole

define the 'dole' is the dole a company? a person? a product?

it is social security

define social security...the state supports its citizens in need, payed for by the citizens' taxes

it is not a commodity or something you work 'for'

'working' for the dole = state sanctioned slavery system

end of story.

DJ Nikos writes...

'working' for the dole = state sanctioned slavery system

end of story

Love, I pay tax so that you can work for the dole( usually standing around, wasting time for both employer and yourself) and get newstart

giggio writes...

I pay tax so that you can work for the dole( usually standing around, wasting time for both employer and yourself) and get newstart

dude or whatever... i am fully employed and pay my due taxes every year...so please stay away from assumptions...

and by the way I expect my taxes to go to the needy, unemployed, disabled etc. and no I dont expect them to work for it... they are in need it is called social security....why the f.. will it be called security when you are forced to WORK for it.

and btw... rather my taxes go to my neighbour thank you... instead it goes to politicians fat arses and the stupid global warming crap, overseas aid and popping babies out.

no wonder crime is increasing, hospital waiting lists get longer and blah blah blah...

DJ Nikos writes...

instead it goes to politicians fat arses and the stupid global warming crap, overseas aid and popping babies out.

no wonder crime is increasing, hospital waiting lists get longer and blah blah blah...

I would agree with this...........However, if one is unemployed, they should do something for the dole. It keeps people going rather than sit at home and get depressed.

DJ Nikos writes...

its a pitiance and most wont /cant live on that for too long..
In rural areas you have no choice on wether you want to work or not. Money in the hand is not an issue. There is no work to be had.

giggio writes...

There is no work to be had.

in that case get your 400 bucks I don't and no one else should care... if there is no work there we as fellow australians are sorry for it and you can have your pitiance in peace!

we are rich enough/pay enough taxes don't you think????!?!?!?

Our forefathers fought blood, sweat and tears for this RIGHT
and you all think it should be earned?
why do you pay taxes for? you fools!

DJ Nikos writes...

we are rich enough/pay enough taxes don't you think????!?!?!?

I am not sure about being rich, but I think kids should have to do something to get money.
If you are over 40 and unemployed, who cares what you do. It is hopeless anyway. But young kids should at least try.

giggio writes...

I am not sure about being rich

Australia is a First World Country with a GDP that exceeds most 'rich' countries.

We have enough resources in the ground to provide social security to our populace for millions of years...

those resources are FREE provided by this good ol' earth..so Australia as a country is RICH, so theres NO excuse for making anyone work for a pitiance...

let alone kids (why did you bring kids up?)...the Industrial revolution sorted that out but yet we edge closer to those days where the employer was ruler...

kids SHOULD NOT WORK

do we need to spill blood again?

DJ Nikos writes...

do we need to spill blood again?
Are you sure you are not on the dole?

giggio writes...

Are you sure you are not on the dole?

I am sure you're a broken record...

DJ Nikos writes...

and btw... rather my taxes go to my neighbour thank you... instead it goes to politicians fat arses and the stupid global warming crap, overseas aid and popping babies out.

We certainly are seeing tax revenue being squandered on more and more spurious things. It's a shame no government dares to roll back a lot of tax money flowing to people who aren't struggling on the bread line.

A family on $90k should not be paid gobs of taxpayers money. Oldies and people down on their luck need that helping hand, and they're not getting enough of it.

Unpaid work trials are a scam. There is a world of difference between volunteering, work experience for Tafe, etc. Fell for it myself, in IT (what else?). Lasted 1 day, had a look at the business and put it down to the company director (owner) being a shyster. Back in the '90s. One lives and learns to be sure.

DJ Nikos writes...

they are in need it is called social security....why the f.. will it be called security when you are forced to WORK for it.

So you're against the name? If it was renamed 'job created by the government and given to you because you can't find any other job and will stop you from starving' you'd be cool with it?

Has Green Corps changed? Because when I last participated in it back around 2004/2005 I got a weekly wage and took home around $350-400 can't remember exactly. Green Corps isn't volunteer it's an actual paid job.

Mohammed. writes...

'job created by the government and given to you because you can't find any other job and will stop you from starving' you'd be cool with it?

Those jobs created are stupid. Most of the time, the employer have to expend more resources to keep an eye on you so you don't steal stuff from the shop.

A few years back I started work with ABB doing cabling for Telstra Cable at homes.

A few days in it became apparent that they weren't going to pay me and they classed it as 'work experience'.

I never showed up again and ignored their phone calls thereafter.

Russell writes...

A few days in it became apparent that they weren't going to pay me and they classed it as 'work experience'.

I heard this went on a lot and was condoned by the then liberal government which diod not prosecute those schemes that the job Network had in place. Particularly one that recruited meatworkers

snowant writes...

I've said this before, but where I am now has it enshrined in their contract all staff sign that they will be required sometimes to work unpaid overtime.

Not true. Your just being mislead about your hourly rate. You *think* it's higher than it is.

Free work is being forced to Work for the Dole. Work for the Dole is state enforced slave labour. It does nothing to build a person's self estem or provide them with skills for jobs. It is a waste of time and is compulsory.

Work for the Dole is moral destroying and wages should be paid. A fair day's pay for a fair day's work. People should not have work for welfare benefits. It is nonsense.

Lots of money is wasted on implementing and running Work for the Dole that is spent on dole payments. Bureacratic incompetence. Failed Howard populist policy.

Why should the unemployed be forced to Work for the Dole and be treated like criminals? Criminals do the same compulsory community service because of crimes they have committed.

numonex writes...

Free work is being forced to Work for the Dole

Well stop robbing the government of your centrelink payments every fortnight.

You get paid benefits, they expect something back, thats attending appointments with the JSA, job searching, etc.. Its to make getting a job a better option then staying on the dole and Im very happy they are doing that.

All the dole bludgers got a free year with the new JSA contracts, they will soon find themselves on work for the dole as they have been out of work a minimum of a year, probably much longer.

It does nothing to build a person's self estem or provide them with skills for jobs. It is a waste of time and is compulsory.

Its not a waste of time for the community, the skills and esteem parts are worked on with the JSA, making it compulsary means people will actually do it or get breached.

Work for the Dole is moral destroying and wages should be paid.

They are, or it wouldnt be called 'work for the dole' its not called 'work cause were making you haha'

Failed Howard populist policy

The current contract is not even 12 months old, work for the dole on that hasnt started yet AFAIK. That puts it as a labour policy, and how can it fail when it hasnt started?

Why should the unemployed be forced to Work for the Dole and be treated like criminals?

Criminals also breath are, ZOMG Im treated as a criminal because I *also* breath air.

Your forced to work for the dole because your long term unemployed and the government is better off getting something back for the dole payments, and so is the community.

If you hate the idea so much... heres a wild suggestion, now stick with me... Get a job.

I expect these cop out 'dont make me ACTUALLY do something!' long term unemployed to rally around their fellow dole bludgers and cry poor even more as they are forced into WFTD, while I look forward to cleaner parks and such.

numonex writes...

Free work is being forced to Work for the Dole.

oh boo flapping hoo, if you're able bodied get off your arse and get a job. what, you expect the government to pay you a living wage without you having to make any effort whatsoever?

numonex writes...

Free work is being forced to Work for the Dole. Work for the Dole is state enforced slave labour. It does nothing to build a person's self estem or provide them with skills for jobs. It is a waste of time and is compulsory.

Work for the Dole is moral destroying and wages should be paid. A fair day's pay for a fair day's work. People should not have work for welfare benefits. It is nonsense.

Sounds like you lot need to form a Union, and fight for your rights ... lol

ULU ; Union for the Longterm Unemployed ?

Fire an email off, when you get some spare time from all that work, to Sharan Burrow and see if she can help work anything out.

numonex writes...

Why should the unemployed be forced to Work for the Dole and be treated like criminals? Criminals do the same compulsory community service because of crimes they have committed.

2 choices with this too btw.
1 – Cop it on the chin and work alongside these Crims on Community Service.
2 – Join them sooner or later when you lose your payments.

You got to eat sometime and when you can't pay, people are bound to take food and stuff they need one way or another [I know I wouldn't appreciate having some hanger raving person mugging me for a few $$ for some grub] which can only lead to crime --> charge --> court --> jail/Community service --> still starving at the end of it/during with Community Service (I wonder how long before CL re-instate the hungry persons payments) --> If no payments [after jail]/CL take too long to re-start payments it's back to another crime --> rinse and repeat...

Either way your stuffed until you find and open door number 3.

3. Employment =D

Work for the Dole is moral destroying and wages should be paid. A fair day's pay for a fair day's work. People should not have work for welfare benefits. It is nonsense.

I agree it is nonsense when it is run to the detriment of other employed people (eg, lots of painting jobs went to this program in my area instead of painters and apprentices) who miss out on the honest days pay because their honest days work is done (exploited) by people running the program.
Would be less 'moral destroying' if they actual run some decent programs that lead to up-skilling people towards (or even into) employment [everybody wins then].

Lots of money is wasted on implementing and running Work for the Dole that is spent on dole payments. Bureacratic incompetence. Failed Howard populist policy.

Anyone got some figures? IMO they should double them to include how much is also lost in taxes and revenue that would have otherwise came from tradies who have lost work because of this program (would love to see some speak up and say how they haven't been getting as much work because of this program).

Free work is being forced to Work for the Dole. Work for the Dole is state enforced slave labour. It does nothing to build a person's self estem or provide them with skills for jobs. It is a waste of time and is compulsory.

It ain't free; it was (back in 07) an extra $20 per fortnight worked on top of Newstart OR $0 [breaching payment conditions etc.] and you were excused from turning up (and hours credited I think) on days when you had job interviews and other related activities etc. (it wasn't run to the detriment of you losing any chance of gaining employment because you had to attend WFTD).

Hellman109 writes...

If you hate the idea so much... heres a wild suggestion, now stick with me... Get a job.

Have been looking for quite a while, received my share of knock-backs but still looking [I recently even applied for a Local council planning office traineeship which appeared on the net a few days before the local papers so here is to hoping 'first in is best dressed' =D].

I haven't given up [unlike some others] and am still looking so if anyone is offering a 'West Victoria (Horsham area)' job for data entry, multimedia (not overly experienced but I have a Cert IV of IT Multimedia I can put to good use), IT tech work (not enough clients in this area for me to run a backyard IT Tech business) or traineeships with other IT areas (Networking or even Project Management), Business Admin or even Retail (I would despise myself for selling Monster HDMI Cables X( but good golly if it's paying my wages I'll do it) I'll gladly accept a whim or two [Newstart = 'dole bludger' bashing whims are NOT welcome].

If you just Google Horsham, Victoria, Australia you have given yourself a fair idea of what rural Victoria means ;)

Also to prove I'm not trying to bludge my way through life; I've also taken up part-time study to try and fill in the gap I'll end up with on my resume this year to try and show that I haven't spent all this time twiddling my thumbs (although I haven't had any formal employment I'm doing my best to make up for it through tertiary education).
Since AUSTUDY pays pittance compared to Newstart I've had no financial choice [since I still don't have a job or even a traineeship] but to stick to it (despite working with people on CBOs/Community Service etc with the WFTD program later).
I'd have still been looking for work either way so even though on AUSTUDY I wouldn't have to turn a find x jobs form [4 being rural Victoria] it means nothing would have changed for me personally except the fact that I would have been receiving less money as a part-time TAFE student then I would have as a job seeker [so sorry but blame the Gov that people like me are forced to robbing the government of your centrelink payments every fortnight.].

I expect these cop out 'dont make me ACTUALLY do something!' long term unemployed to rally around their fellow dole bludgers and cry poor even more as they are forced into WFTD, while I look forward to cleaner parks and such.

I'm all for cleaner public areas but not to the detriment of employed tradies. Lots of trade work in my area that could have lined the pockets of those painters and plasterers etc. instead of staying with sports clubs [which can afford it through the fees from paying members] who instead exploited the WFTD program for the same honest days work to be done (exploited when it could mean 1 less apprenticeship in my local area [that could have been me for all I know X( ]).

Your forced to work for the dole because your long term unemployed and the government is better off getting something back for the dole payments, and so is the community.

Even if I were a tax payer I'd rather pay my dues then have people assaulting me in the middle of the street for a few $ worth of food, beer/alcohol, smokes and their latest drug hit (I don't drink alcohol [Water, coffee, Milo or cocoa thanks =D], smoke or do drugs) dare I say WoW monthly fees here <STOP READING MY MIND =P>.
If your paying too much tax then maybe it's time to reorganize your finances (AFAIK mortgage payments aren't taxed and it might just be time to get some investment properties sorted out [leave a fee for me when I do finally get some work and $ rolling =D])

You get paid benefits, they expect something back, thats attending appointments with the JSA, job searching, etc.. Its to make getting a job a better option then staying on the dole and Im very happy they are doing that.

+1
I'm all for encouraging people to find work (good luck with getting those people to work who drink their energy drinks and play Word of W<self-censored> all day).

Its not a waste of time for the community, the skills and esteem parts are worked on with the JSA, making it compulsary means people will actually do it or get breached.

Unless it leads people on Newstart/The dole into employment then IMO it is a waste of time. Although I'm all for cleaner public areas, freshly painted park benches and sporting clubs; I'd much rather see people on these programs actually be gaining some skills that can help them gain employment instead of spending/wasting their time on sugar coating just how ugly the employment situation really is (both physically in appearance of the community and with fudging the unemployment figures as it'd prob be seen as a type of employment come time to tally the unemployment rates).

Criminals also breath are, ZOMG Im treated as a criminal because I *also* breath air.

We all are, the punishment is either WFTD [for the unemployed] or a little thing called taxes (unless you also would consider death as a punishment for life since that's the only other assured thing that comes with living stop breathing my air you oxygen thief =P)

This post has turned into quite a lengthy rant (sorry) but again if anyone is interested in hiring me (I don't rant like this all day [I'll have a brief whinge but I'll still sweat the hard yards and get the work done =P]) then whim me if your from Horsham, West Victoria (and no Newstart = Dole Bludger complaints cause in my case it = part time TAFE student too).

and blame the typos and grammar errors on the early morning hour of this post (lost track of time trying to put this and 2 other posts together)

oh boo flapping hoo, if you're able bodied get off your arse and get a job. what, you expect the government to pay you a living wage without you having to make any effort whatsoever?

If your hiring whim me (sorry mods for the repetition/self advertising) but otherwise NO I do not believe people on Newstart (let's NOT pick on disability pensioners [the genuine cases that is]) should get something from nothing [fix up AUSTUDY K.Rudd].

Was going to put all posts in one post but decided to try and break it up (and prob fail miserable due to these early Sunday morning hours)

Work for the Dole and unpaid work experience is just a scam hatched up by employers/businesses and government to rip off vulnerable naive people. It is all about exploitation and punishing people through punitive measures. Populist way of getting votes by further kicking the long term unemployed instead of helping them out.

Work for the dole is stupid because if the government can find work for these people why arent they employed with a wage for doing it ?

I consider Work For The Dole as Community Service and thats what Convicted yobbos have to do for anti-social crimes. The crime is that our government has let jobs disappear to the 3rd world in return for cheap crap from China.

I also see the selling off of Public Assets and the reduction in Employment in those sectors as a contributing factor to the Unemployment Rate.

Should the dole be changed to an unemployment insurance scheme like in the States where after a certain period of time you are cut back to basic benefits only like food stamps?

The crime is that our government has let jobs disappear to the 3rd world in return for cheap crap from China. It is the governments responsibility to create a climate for jobs growth. If they fail then they at least owe the public the protection of unemployment Benefits.

I dont have a problem with Welfare going to poor people.
Many small businesses rely on the income from Welfare Recipients and that money in turn creates jobs as 99% of it is spent locally, like a stimulus.

Why do so many people need Welfare if we are such a successful country ?
Thats the real question

Hellman109 writes...

Well stop robbing the government of your centrelink payments every fortnight.

Stop thinkging the Government is a person or a company to rob. The money it has is OUR money (taxes forcebily taken or you go to jail).

You can't rob it. And it is a pittiance to even argue about it.

You of course would pay your taxes and gladlly see it wasted on politicians fat arses, global warming and saving the animals...

TV is your God mate... whatever the media says, you just repeat it...

DJ Nikos writes...

Stop thinkging the Government is a person or a company to rob. The money it has is OUR money (taxes forcebily taken or you go to jail).

Not if your on the dole, your getting far more then your paying from the government.

TV is your God mate... whatever the media says, you just repeat it...

Actually I watch very little TV, and what I do watch the ads are cut out 95% of the time.

Hellman109 writes...

your getting far more then your paying from the government.

$200 a week is far more? wtf... you realise how little this is a week right?

and you obviously don't get my second point...you have lost the ability to think for yourself.

numonex writes...

instead of helping them out.

What about all the ones who dont want to help themselves? who have absolutly no intention of getting a job, or put their requirements at stupid levels (EG, minimum $100k job... when they are on like 20k benefits).
There are ofcourse exceptions to every rule, but WFTD is a good option as it kicks those peoples asses, and I hope annoys them into getting a job because if they are going to work, they may as well get better pay for it. Yes that is punative, but for dole bludgers (that is, the group that dont *want* a job) Im all for that.

The crime is that our government has let jobs disappear to the 3rd world in return for cheap crap from China.

Err times change, thats nothing new at all. We also export allot of goods, and if your complaining about imports, our exports are screwing someone out of a job in some other country aswell.

China is winning out on basic production jobs because their cost of living is far lower, so they can work for allot less (and also accept a lower standard of living). Thats nothing that any government or person in Australia has forced.

Why do so many people need Welfare if we are such a successful country ?

Because if we werent then welfare wouldnt exist, because we couldnt afford to pay for it. New school leavers make up allot of them, so do people in industries that are now redundant (think those people sewing for bonds for 20 years who lost their jobs), people who dont want to work, etc.

I have no problems with welfare, as long as people cant just sit and live off it for life.

Hellman109 writes...

I have no problems with welfare, as long as people cant just sit and live off it for life.

$200 a week YOU CANT LIVE ON THAT, thats the point. But why should they be FORCED to work for this pittiance?? Work for the Dole

2-5% of ANY population of ANY workforce will NOT be able to work..thats why its a moot point complaining about the bludgers (theres not many of them). Read my previous post for a refresher

I feel like a broken record stating the same points all over again...

WORKING FOR NOTHING (OR A PITTIANCE) SHOULD BE FORBIDDEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

who disagrees?

numonex writes...

Work for the dole is stupid because if the government can find work for these people why arent they employed with a wage for doing it ?

My husbands great grandfather started a wildlife sanctuary in 1905 – long before people realised that our native flora and fauna should be protected. Now, they have little money, are a non profit organisation and as such are staff by volunteers – and yes, WFTD people. This is not taking jobs away from anyone else, it is giving these people a sense of worth working with the animals, and quite honestly, not one of them resents having to go to work at the Sanctuary.

When I was unemployed after moving interstate, I asked to be part of WFTD within 6 months just to bloody well DO something. (btw, I was declined as I wasn't long term unemployed) Those who don't want to do it IMHO, are those who want to do NOTHING. Its not about what you are being paid, its about doing SOMETHING.

gimik writes...

Its not about what you are being paid, its about doing SOMETHING.

doing SOMETHING for nothing? Work for the Dole is compulsory and you HAVE to do it and get paid the same pittiance...

this isn't about volunteering.... ok? this is about working for NOTHING

oh and btw why aren't my taxes going to this sanctuary and instead going to global warming?

numonex writes...

The crime is that our government has let jobs disappear to the 3rd world in return for cheap crap from China

it is a sad state of affairs when our soldiers' uniforms and Police' s uniforms are manufactured in China. In rural areas people have lost jobs as the factories have moved work overseas

giggio writes...

it is a sad state of affairs

its only sad because apathy rules and roosts here in Australia...

you all type and talk but theres no biff to really do anything...

'when the media pacifies the populace, humanity becomes robotic'

when you can't think for yourselves and preoccupy yourselves with ipods computers and sports etc. etc. you fail to think about whats going on around you...

Apathy killed Australia a long long time ago....the only thing you all can do...go in the corner and short-circuit....

DJ Nikos writes...

when you can't think for yourselves and preoccupy yourselves with ipods computers and sports etc. etc. you fail to think about whats going on around you...

Apathy killed Australia a long long time ago....the only thing you all can do...go in the corner and short-circuit....

Calm down a bit, you sound far too emotional

giggio writes...

Calm down a bit, you sound far too emotional

its ok..i just say it as it is...
and you asked for it :P sorry my words make YOU emotional.. but isn't that the point?

how else do you shake a robot and make him/her realise they are being distracted...

now lets get back on topic...ok?

DJ Nikos writes...

its ok..i just say it as it is...

and you asked for it :P sorry my words make YOU emotional.. but isn't that the point?

No worries. I was just worried you may short circuit yourself

giggio writes...

I was just worried you may short circuit yourself

I ain't no robot...

advice needed:

what about in the retail environment, having sufficient staff ready?

is that the employers responsibilities, or the store managers responsibility?

is it illegal for a retail staff to work by themselves for x amount of hours, just because the employer wont give more hours for someone else to work? then they blame you because you dont have enough staff?

alma2009 writes...

is it illegal for a retail staff to work by themselves for x amount of hours, just because the employer wont give more hours for someone else to work? then they blame you because you dont have enough staff?

Need more information.

DJ Nikos writes...

this isn't about volunteering.... ok? this is about working for NOTHING

You get centrelink benefits.

You realise that over the 6 months you need to do an average of like 5 hours a week? suck it up princess.

giggio writes...

it is a sad state of affairs when our soldiers' uniforms and Police' s uniforms are manufactured in China.

While I can't say about Police uniforms, ADF uniforms are Australian made. The head of defence has stated 'they always will be'.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/10/2815392.htm